[80s Vehicle Toys] Suck or No Suck?

Posted by gingaio 
I felt a spasm of what I initially mistook to be joy, but which could have simply been acid reflux, when I discovered this:

[www.entertainmentearth.com]

I really wanted that car when I was kid. Damn if the Hoff ain't wearing a red turtleneck.

Suck or No Suck?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2012 12:25AM by gingaio.
[www.bigbadtoystore.com]

The proto of this was first shown a couple of years ago (http://trekmovie.com/2010/02/15/diamond-select-reveals-new-star-trek-toys-at-toy-fair-2010/). Losers like me Google for news of the release date every so often. A large BOP toy with adjustable wings and landing gears is something I've been pining for since TNG was first airing on TV.

Suck or No Suck?

(There is only 1 right answer in this case.)
Sanjeev (Admin)
I'm giving a Suck to KITT (only in large-scale toy form, of course), and a No Suck to the Cling-on anal probe.

When I was little, I always wanted the big (Barbie-scale) KITT because...well, it was big. And it was freakin' Knight Rider. Never got it, of course, but looking back, I feel like I dodged a bullet. I dunno, I've never liked big car toys. I've had various large-scale Mach 5 toys, and they similarly leave me feeling kinda unfulfilled.

Small Hotwheels/Matchbox-style diecasts of such famous tv vehicles, however, are the absolute bomb. Love them shits...

And as for the Star Trek joint, I'm not a big Star Trek fan (though I've seen a lot of the shows and movies), but I can totally see how having a toy like that would be dope for someone really into the property. So on behalf of Trekkies, "it's about damn time."
Sanjeev Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Small Hotwheels/Matchbox-style diecasts of such
> famous tv vehicles, however, are the absolute
> bomb. Love them shits...
>
I think I know where you're coming from.

That said, Hot Wheels is making a bunch of 1:18-scaled vehicles of some pretty classic stuff:

[www.bigbadtoystore.com]

And I'm a mite tempted to cross-pollinate them with the Joes on my shelf.

> And as for the Star Trek joint, I'm not a big Star
> Trek fan (though I've seen a lot of the shows and
> movies), but I can totally see how having a toy
> like that would be dope for someone really into
> the property. So on behalf of Trekkies, "it's
> about damn time."

A lot of the ships from Trek kind of suck to me, but I've always been a sucker for totally Showy Anal Probes. The prototype pics looked really good, but then again, they're just prototype pics.
And speaking of cross-pollinating:

[www.angelfire.com]
Well, I'm a fan of 1/18 Hollywood diecast. Delorean time machine, KITT w/ lights, Mach 5, Shooting Star, 89 Batmobile, various others. Oh, and not diecast, but still MEGALOVING the finally-released Police Spinner. Soul of Popynika Kaneda's Bike. I guess I like 1/24 too, but they better have ACTION FEATURES of some sort, or else forget it.

Regarding bigger vs. smaller scales, I think the biggest carI have is a cheap 1/10 R/C Mach that seats a figure. Bigger 1/6's always tempt me (Hot Toys 89 Batmobile, Kaneda's bike which I would TOTALLY COP if I had the space), those guys are around the breadth of the Legacy Falcon, already the single largest piece I own. These are more in the class of furniture, and you don't just impulse-order coffee tables without knowing exactly where they are going to live for the next n years.

------------------------------------------------------------------
I am seeking a plastic Popy Tora Sobu Raideen.
Sanjeev (Admin)
I feel you. Heh..for some reason, only the wee diecast cars appeal to the zoom-around-the-couch kid in me!

Anyway, since the thread is about 80's vehicle toys, in general, are 3-3/4"-scale (~1/18) GI Joe vehicles up for discussion? Kinda hard to talk about 80's vehicle toys without bringing up those masterpieces!
Sanjeev Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anyway, since the thread is about 80's vehicle
> toys, in general, are 3-3/4"-scale (~1/18) GI Joe
> vehicles up for discussion? Kinda hard to talk
> about 80's vehicle toys without bringing up those
> masterpieces!

Like I've ever been a stickler for staying on-topic. Feel free, man.

I totally love the sci-fi-meets-military aesthetic of a lot of the Joe vehicles, though it it didn't occur to me until far too late that there was a fundamental ridiculousness to heavily armored vehicles being equipped with big-ass glass-encased cockpits.
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leMel42 Wrote:
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> Oh, and not diecast, but still MEGALOVING the
> finally-released Police Spinner.

Yes, exactly. I've been waiting for someone here to do a pictorial review of this thing (from the Medicom Blade Runner Blu-Ray combo set, right?).

For the past year, I've been trying to talk myself into buying this (even discounted from HLJ, it's still too painfully close to the $200 mark). It looks like the perfect combination of plastic simplicity/sturidiness and satisfying source-material accuracy. Not to mention that this is one of the most elegant sci-fi designs ever, as classically beautiful as Giger's Alien is classically unsettling and nightmarish.
gingaio Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I totally love the sci-fi-meets-military aesthetic
> of a lot of the Joe vehicles, though it it didn't
> occur to me until far too late that there was a
> fundamental ridiculousness to heavily armored
> vehicles being equipped with big-ass glass-encased
> cockpits.

Ever had a look at Kenner's Mega Force toyline? Micro Machines meets realistic military near future vehicle meets giant mobile bases meets diecast and spring-loaded goodness meets extreme detail.

The small vehicles often are derived from existing real-life designs or concepts, while the larger vehicles start at super tanks and end at landships. Each toy comes with a very detailed schematic of the vehicle on the box, only reinforcing the realism. Although no details are given about the two sides, V-Rocs are quite clearly based on US vehicles, e.g. modified F-14 Tomcats, their logo is a five-pointed star quite similar to the US airforce insigna, and their vehicles have a more slick, technologically advanced look, whereas Triax is rather obviously based on somewhat older Soviet Union designs ("Triax" is also reminiscent of WW2's name for Germany/Japan/Russia: Axis powers).
Sanjeev (Admin)
thomas Wrote:
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> ...whereas Triax is rather obviously
> based on somewhat older Soviet Union designs
> ("Triax" is also reminiscent of WW2's name for
> Germany/Japan/Russia: Axis powers).

Umm...Russia was one of the Allies...and most definitely NOT part of the Axis! LOL
gingaio Wrote:
>
> [www.bigbadtoystore.com]
>
> The proto of this was first shown a couple of
> years ago.
> Losers like me Google for news of the release date
> every so often. A large BOP toy with adjustable
> wings and landing gears is something I've been
> pining for since TNG was first airing on TV.

Huh, I didn't even know the BoP could land. When did we see that on-screen?

I think there was a big toy of it in the 90s, but I was pretty satisfied with the Action Fleet version, and the really well-detailed light-up Hallmark Christmas tree ornament from 1994.


Sanjeev Wrote:
>
> When I was little, I always wanted the big
> (Barbie-scale) KITT because...well, it was big.
> And it was freakin' Knight Rider. Never got it, of
> course, but looking back, I feel like I dodged a
> bullet. I dunno, I've never liked big car toys.
> I've had various large-scale Mach 5 toys, and they
> similarly leave me feeling kinda unfulfilled.

The real value of a sixth scale KITT is that you can put it on your coffee table and blow the minds of any visitors to your home who are particularly afflicted with nostalgia.


As for GI Joe vehicles, this is a favorite of mine:
[www.yojoe.com]
Its light-up gimmick, which projects a crosshairs on the wall, an enemy plane inside it, and gunfire hitting it, is extremely ambitious and actually works half-decently.


Mega Force is one of the best toylines ever. Its megavehicle designs push a fanboy button in my heart that hardly anything else ever has. I had most of the toys as a kid, and I wish I had kept them in better shape.

-Paul Segal

"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
Sanjeev (Admin)
I think, like, Star Trek 3 or 4 showed a BoP with the wings raised and on the ground.

Heh...I think a 1/6 KITT on my coffee table would likely be the most mundane thing I'm my house! :P

And I just spent some time looking into those Mega Force toys...pretty killer, but some of the designs are really lame. Still, definitely plenty of winners. I think these came out right as I was "getting too old for toys", so that's probably why I don't really remember them...

Anyway, the one big ticket (literally! We won it in a raffle!) GI Joe item I had was the Cobra Rattler. Besides the finicky wing-mounted engines that never seemed to stay together, it was awesome!
Sanjeev Wrote:
> I think, like, Star Trek 3 or 4 showed a BoP with
> the wings raised and on the ground.

Okay, once I knew to search for ST3 screencaps, I found it in a minute. Gorgeous!
[www.flickr.com]

> Heh...I think a 1/6 KITT on my coffee table would
> likely be the most mundane thing I'm my house! :P

Right, it only works on the nostalgia-afflicted! My favorite display toy is the Jumbo Hero Gourai-Sempujin, but people come over and ask if it's Voltron.

> And I just spent some time looking into those Mega
> Force toys...pretty killer, but some of the
> designs are really lame.

Well, sure, the Ram-Fist's big sweeper arms are lame, and some coloring choices are dubious, but I think most of the designs are solid, in a way that appeals to the old-school anime aesthetic. They look like something out of Big Wars or another cheesy sci-fi combat OAV. And the micro vehicles are pretty much awesome across the board.

-Paul Segal

"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
Sanjeev (Admin)
LOL...the Ram-Fist was one of the ones I liked! It looked "tough" to me...like it could definitely dish out some whoop-ass! :P I guess that sort of design gives me a very Gerry Anderson feel...though much more violent than your typical Anderson masterpiece.

I found stuff like the Thor-Hammer, the two aircraft, and the Skorpion pretty boring (well, the Skorpion was kinda imaginative...just not very fun). I like the micro tanks/missile-tanks, but I wish the designs were more varied. There's little to differentiate the two armies' forces...
Wow, this thread hits me right between the eyes. I'm a huge Trek hardware fan, especially when executed by toy companies that usually specialize in cars:



I can't wait for the DST Klingon BOP. With the exception of the NX-01, all of DST's Enterprises have been good-to-great. I once had the clunky Playmates version, but got rid of it after seeing what Corgi could do with the subject in diecast (above) and hearing that DST planned its own version.

I'm torn on KITT. I'd prefer the Hot Wheels 1:18 version that would fit in well with my Batmobiles. But what is KITT without its Cylon-esque sensor? I'll probably end up with the DST electronic version and stick a Batman in it.

Best, Ken-A
Sanjeev Wrote:
>
> I found stuff like the Thor-Hammer, the two
> aircraft, and the Skorpion pretty boring (well,
> the Skorpion was kinda imaginative...just not very
> fun). I like the micro tanks/missile-tanks, but I
> wish the designs were more varied. There's little
> to differentiate the two armies' forces...

Really, the Skorpion was my favorite as a kid! Its little "train" craft that it launches is half diecast metal, so it doesn't fly too far, but it just feels... it has impact to it. And the way it rises up on its hydraulic arms is really cool too. It just feels very serious, physically, and the desert camo paint job works with that.
The Trident is similarly serious - it's a refueling truck! When's the last time you saw a toy of a refueling vehicle in a combat-themed toyline? And the way it's designed works great with the VTOL planes.
The Thunderwolf helicopter is also very serious with its nose door into the cargo bay.

I liked the Thor-Hammer and Strikemaster as a kid because they're a rocket launch base and a space shuttle. I feel like you can't go wrong with that. They still feel cool to me.

The ones I find goofy now, that I liked as a kid, like the Ram-Fist, Tar-Traks and Crossbolt, I used to love for their unnecessarily elaborate ways to carry and deploy the small vehicles. They all still look pretty formidable when closed up.

I agree on the micro jets, tanks and missile trucks looking about the same between the two forces. But they still all look great to me.

Apparently there are a bunch of poorly documented unproduced toys from prospective later series of Mega Force. Thinking back on it, this toyline must have been on seriously deep clearance at some point, that's the only thing that could account for me having almost all of the toys...

-Paul Segal

"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
Sanjeev (Admin)
The Thunderwolf, especially, makes me squeal like a little girl. I think that and the ludicrous Ram-First are my favorites...but keep in mind, I'm looking at these from the perspective of a jaded old man! :P

Had I been at the right age for these when they came out, I'd likely have a whole different attitude.
asterphage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
<snip>
>
> Apparently there are a bunch of poorly documented
> unproduced toys from prospective later series of
> Mega Force.

One name of those toys just makes me wish said toy had been produced: Blackheart Bomber. From what I can see on the concept art at Bickmore's Toy Archive, it would have been a huge flying wing stealth bomber capable of flying almost in space. Drool.

> Thinking back on it, this toyline must
> have been on seriously deep clearance at some
> point, that's the only thing that could account
> for me having almost all of the toys...

It was released in 1989, but I was still able to buy quite a few toys up to halfway the 1990s.
It had no media support, but just from looking at the boxarts and technical data I think it could have been the base for a totally killer cartoon in the style of early 1990s anime OVAs: highly-detailed well-animated mechanical designs shooting the shit out of each other set to some metal music. Sometimes I wish I had the skills to make a fan-opening...

BTW, in Europe we got more realistic box-art than the somewhat cartoony US versions, except for Thorhammer and Goliath, who were released in US boxes with stickers slapped on.

I heart most of the Mega Force vehicles quite a lot. Ramfist's working arms are a completely ludicruous design, but it's such fun to put a bunch of tanks in front of him and crank down that button repeatedly so the arms wipe away the tanks with quite some punch.
Although Goliath is rather plasticy and a bit cheap in its execution, you can't go wrong with a foot long super tank that folds open into a huge base with landing pads, runways, artillery towers, and a storage area with working lift. It's like all that most Micro Machine and Micromaster bases never were.
Sanjeev Wrote:
> The Thunderwolf, especially, makes me squeal like
> a little girl. I think that and the ludicrous
> Ram-First are my favorites...but keep in mind, I'm
> looking at these from the perspective of a jaded
> old man! :P

The Thunderwolf can easily land on top of the Ram-Fist or Crossbolt.

-Paul Segal

"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
I still have the Thunderwolf somewhere...It is a very cool toy indeed...The interesting thing about it was all of the cool surface detail. Raised panel lines and, if I remember correctly, interior detail.e...man I need to try and locate it again...I remember the tanks and smaller helicopters being pretty cool as well. The tanks less so...the plastic parts were kind of rubbery...
Sanjeev Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anyway, the one big ticket (literally! We won it
> in a raffle!) GI Joe item I had was the Cobra
> Rattler. Besides the finicky wing-mounted engines
> that never seemed to stay together, it was
> awesome!

I was just thinking the other day how awesome it would be if 3rd Part Transgenders would ape multi-universe designs when I came across a Rattlor-colored Power Glide Knock Off. I would love to see KITT, A-Team Van, Air Woof, Cyclon Raider, etc.

I think that Jayce and Wheeled Warriors proves that 1980s vehicle insanity does not suck. Any decade that can give us shark faced monster trucks piloted by plant-brain monsters has real funk. Not that I personally want to relive any of that. Just... It's there.

Oh, and the vintage KITT toy? One of my childhood friends had that and you could just hear the cheap-ass plastic and stickers sucking from across the street. We both hated it and used to push it off of things to laugh at its "turbo jump" fails.
Sanjeev (Admin)
Ah, Jayce. Yes; fantastic.

I still have all the veggie baddies.
I used to love the Wheeled Warriors cartoon when I was a kid. I had a couple of the good-guy vehicles (the main one and the one with the drills). Really cool stuff. I know the DVD set of the first half of the first season was released a while back. Is the cartoon worth a second look?

Also, Thomas--good call on the Mega Force toys. Somehow, I have no recollection of that line at all, but those big airships look really sweet.
Sanjeev (Admin)
gingaio Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...Is
> the cartoon worth a second look?

Nope. It doesn't end properly. Jayce is never reunited with his father. They never beat Saw Boss. The show just...stops. :/

(I know this because I downloaded a torrent of all the episodes a few years ago. I skipped to the end to make sure it ended...and it didn't. So me and my boys just smoked some blunts, watched the first 5 eps or so, and deleted the rest. Called it a day.)

Anyway, y'know...those Mega Force toys actually kinda remind me of Air Raiders. Granted, Air Raiders featured smallish pilot figures, so the scale was way largers...but something about the scifi vehicle designs...
I love the aesthetics of the Air Raiders stuff though I've never collected it.

For 80's vehicle-based stuff, StarCom and the UK's unbelievable MANTA Force line come to my mind.

MASK had some good stuff, though it's hard to know where to draw the line between a vehicle-based line and a figure line with some of these.

Do the dinos in Dino-Riders count as vehicles? Or are they closer to Zoids? :D
Sanjeev (Admin)
Heh...I definitely think Dino-Riders count! A buddy of mine had a bunch of them, but I kinda thought they were a bit weak (the dino's looked really placid to me...and not at all about to go to war with lasers & missiles & shit!).

StarCom is fucking amazing. I still have my Shadow Bat and I picked up two Parasites for the wings. Love it. The cartoon was really weird--it was clearly animated outside the US, but the dubbing in the US was super-shoddy.

MASK is classic...but for some reason, I've never felt the need to go back and pick up any of my favorites from youth. I *did* think that the actual mask accessory for each figure was a dope idea.
Dino-Riders had a great concept, and I love the general design, the alien figures, the box art, but the actual weapons and armor on most of the dino toys just feels like an arbitrary assortment of seats and blasters and panels. Some that I wasn't aware of as a kid, like the Torosaurus, have a slick, unified design, but most are pretty random.

My favorite StarCom toys were the ones that folded up into neat little boxes, like the Starwolf and Battlecrane.

-Paul Segal

"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
One of the first things I was selling on Ebay was my Starcom stuff, had purchased it by the CASE when I worked for a retail hardware store chain in the 80's.

Paid about 25 cents per figure, 50 cents for each small vehicle, two bucks each for the big "planes", and similarly for the folding base. Sold them in mixed sets at fixed prices until they were all gone, most lasted an hour or two on Ebay before they were snatched, I wasn't greedy...yet.

Still kicking myself as I could have also gotten Star Wars figs for ten dollars a case (48?) with the coins...I know carbonite solo and luke with the stormtrooper helmet were in the mix as we sold one case in the store from that "fire sale".

Kick! Kick! Ouch!

p.s. Joe Skystrikers on clearance all over, including Targets everywhere!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2012 11:44PM by Supersentai.
Sanjeev (Admin)
Well, sure...hustling Star Wars toys woulda been a great move. But you really shoulda saved one of each Starcom toy for yourself...those are some of the best vehicle toys EVAR.

MOAR KICKS!!
(trying to come up with a clever remark about it being ironic and appropriate to buy StarCom stuff packed tightly into crates...)

I only rediscovered StarCom (I noted it but passed it by in the 80s) recently and was helped by a friend with a really nice starter set of toys from the line, and I have to say, nothing prepared me for just how amazingly cool they were. These things are a wonderful mashup of Japanese push-button diecast gimmickry, Thunderbirds, NASA futurism, Diaclone/Microman like magnetic gimmicks, and a western post-GI Joe ARAH action figure spin. I look forward to collecting more someday. :)

Anyone here ever collect MANTA Force from the UK though? I wish I had the funds and space to do so. Lots of nifty nesting space vehicles and tons of tiny figures...
Sanjeev Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> gingaio Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ...Is
> > the cartoon worth a second look?
>
> Nope. It doesn't end properly. Jayce is never
> reunited with his father. They never beat Saw
> Boss. The show just...stops. :/
>
Huh. Good tip. I tried to watch MASK a while back. Story-wise, it's unwatchable, but it's got such pretty 80s hand-drawn animation.

> Anyway, y'know...those Mega Force toys actually
> kinda remind me of Air Raiders. Granted, Air
> Raiders featured smallish pilot figures, so the
> scale was way largers...but something about the
> scifi vehicle designs...

Yeah, Air Raiders were pretty sweet. And the Dino Riders box art is fairly amazing. As questionable as the toys may be, the art is sublime. I remember standing in the toy aisles just staring at all the different packages and this world that was being represented, not even thinking much about the toys.

Did you know there was also a crappy Dino Riders toon? I didn't, not until a few days ago.
Starcom, ah Starcom.

I completely love that line. Funny thing was, when it first came out I scoffed at it! I said "bah. tiny figures, clunky looking toys, Coleco? screw it!" Then, when I was working at Children's Palace we got a bunch of deadstock in as clearance and I picked up the small fighter and fell in love. If you have the fighter, you need the bomber to carry it. And you need some of the ground vehicles. And so on and so on.

I'd love to see a relaunch of the line, but in this day and age I expect that to have the features, functions and size they would cost a mint.

And yeah, when I stumble across some stuff like at a flea market if it's not insane I'll pick it up. Someday I'll break down and hunt for all those Euro release (via Mattel Europe) toys.
Sanjeev (Admin)
microbry Wrote:
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> Anyone here ever collect MANTA Force from the UK
> though?

Nope. But somehow Matt Doughty knew about 'em and raved about how cool they were. They don't seem too bad:
[www.mantaforce.co.uk]


gingaio Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did you know there was also a crappy Dino Riders
> toon? I didn't, not until a few days ago.

Yup, if I recall correctly, it was repugnant. I remember missiles firing from exposed launchers...then new ones magically materializing outta thin air to take their place. For some reason, that really bothered me as a kid!
I think I pointed Matt to that MANTA Force site...don't recall if he knew them before that or not. :) The site appears a bit broken on my browser lately, but if you mouse around the top area you can find dropdowns with all sorts of magic to discover.

I bought a junker (well-loved as evidenced by the relative completeness and effort to patch every tiny break with clear tape) of the main ship and I was surprised by just how BIG the set is. These things are definitely worth owning though if you have the money to ship them from the UK (or live there) and the shelf space. I really dig the whole line, but will probably never own more of it unless I retire wealthy...
gingaio Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> leMel42 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Oh, and not diecast, but still MEGALOVING the
> > finally-released Police Spinner.
>
> Yes, exactly. I've been waiting for someone here
> to do a pictorial review of this thing (from the
> Medicom Blade Runner Blu-Ray combo set, right?).
>
> For the past year, I've been trying to talk myself
> into buying this (even discounted from HLJ, it's
> still too painfully close to the $200 mark). It
> looks like the perfect combination of plastic
> simplicity/sturidiness and satisfying
> source-material accuracy. Not to mention that this


Yeah, I kept meaning to write it up, but I don't "do things" any more.

Anyway, it is the exact same car, just in blue plastic with the right bits added. If you look closely at Medicom Future Car (oh i sure did) you saw that the mounting poins were in all to right places for a police spinner. They set it up purposely way back then, just in case.

YES: Decals are...what's the term 'tampo'd? Well, they aren't paper stickers. It's all done right. White detail is painted. Lights on both top and bottom.

NO: No cockpit control details, no working lights, no figures, same old plastic tires (but with the silver hubs now).

But still all right with me.


Ken: You want a 1:18 KITT with light-up sensor? I think I have one somewhere.


Also, I do like this vehicle:


Sanjeev (Admin)
Ah Robo Force! Excellent taste, my friend! :P For some reason, I was really into this weirdo toy line in the 80's. A bunch of oddly-varied garbage cans with suction cups on their bottoms (that I was particularly fond of chewing on!) and big beefy arms that hugged you if you got too close by pressing a button on their backpacks. Very menacing!
I watched the cartoons for MASK, Starcom, AND Dino Riders as a kid. Ah, back in the day. I only ever had one Starcom toy, which was a hand-me-down from my cousin. A jet with two cockpits. You pushed a button and the cockpits would spread apart and a gun would pop out. I still have a pilot with magnetic feet.

-Ginrai
Golden Gate Riot on dead trees at: [www.destroyallcomics.com]
Sanjeev (Admin)
The Starcom dudes were great, in and of themselves: they had that cool clear visor, and a backpack with a little rubber house attached to his gun. Also, despite their tiny size, I don't ever recall any lemons--their joints were always nice and right and the paint ops were always sharp. Pretty good for Coleco!
SteveH Wrote:
>
> I'd love to see a relaunch of the line, but in
> this day and age I expect that to have the
> features, functions and size they would cost a
> mint.

If you look at some of the stuff that Hasbro does in the Transformers line in terms of spring-loaded gimmicks and friction motors, I think it would be manageable. It would have about the same size classes as Transformers, and with less total moving parts they'd have more production budget for the motion gimmicks.

-Paul Segal

"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
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