World's Scariest Otaku

Posted by MattAlt 
So you just want people to stop what they're doing, "grow up" and make babies?

That simple huh.

Welcome to Dr.PhilDX folks.

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I asked if I have "Time For L-Gaim" but I got "No Reply From The Wind".
MattAlt (Admin)
You seriously need to go back and read, because you've missed the point. Hint: it's in the phrase "there isn't any easy fix."

Japan's lack of maternity/paternity leave is but one of many factors that contributes to the demographic problems.

Are you suggesting that giving parents more choice in how they choose to balance childbearing and careers is a bad thing?
>Are you suggesting that giving parents more choice in how they choose to balance >childbearing and careers is a bad thing?

Of course not. But I do subscribe to the notion of "it can't be helped" (albeit more than it needs to).

--------------------------------------------------------------

I asked if I have "Time For L-Gaim" but I got "No Reply From The Wind".
Vincent Z. Wrote:
> But I do subscribe to the notion of "it can't be helped"

Well that's always a good attitude to have. A lot gets done from thinking that way.

-Paul Segal

"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
MattAlt (Admin)
So in other words, you're ready to bust out the pitchforks to defend moe manga from Mayor Ishihara, yet feel the inequality of actual women in society just "can't be helped?"
MattAlt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "If opportunities for men are shrinking , what's
> the corresponding phenomenon among women?"
>
> I'm not sure this is the right question because
> opportunities are shrinking for EVERYONE. But I
> get your drift.
>
> Not so long ago, women were pretty much expected
> to graduate from college, go to a company, serve
> tea and then drop out of the workforce to raise
> babies, no matter how much they contributed to the
> company's bottom line.
>
> That is changing rapidly, more rapidly than
> society has had a chance to catch up with. Now
> it's fine for women to follow their ambitions, but
> the problem is that companies don't have
> American-style maternity leave systems or a
> business culture that supports women who want to
> have kids and go back to work.
>
> So what happens? Many women choose to work and
> don't have kids. This is a huge reason why Japan's
> birth rate has declined so precipitously. I see it
> in my own circle of friends; only a few have had
> one and fewer still more than one.
>
> That decline in birth rate has massive
> repercussions for Japan as a country. (We are
> sensing one of the little tips of that iceberg in
> the anime and toy industries. The entire "moe"
> phenomenon is an indirect result, as adult fans
> outnumber kids, and note also the huge number of
> toys are now made for adults rather than kids.)
>
> Thanks to good nutrition and health care, the
> elderly are soon going to outnumber the young in
> society. It's a big demographic shift that has the
> potential to drag the economy even further down,
> and there isn't any easy fix, unless you want to
> institute a Logan's Run style "Carousel" to even
> out the demographics.

This last part is not only happening in Japan, but is a huge problem in most countries with good health care. Many European countries have tremendous problems with the future of pension funds, because there are steadily less young people who will have to pay for more old people, and who will have to pay even more to ensure they will have money left for when they're old. :(

With regards to births, one can observe an interesting phenomenon in some Western countries: More people have kids and they have more. Unfortunately, this seems to be accompanied by a regression in female emancipation, with young people (aged 20-25) sometimes having rather backwards views of gender roles, and some people proclaiming more or less that life was better in the 1950s and that we ought to go back to the values of then (while obviously ignoring all the stuff that was awful back then, like lack of modern communication, the Cold War, etc.). There's well-educated girls who proclaim that after finishing their university studies they want to have lots of kids and sit at home in the kitchen while daddy does the hard manual work. Sigh.
It's very contrasting with the previous few decades where we've seen development of maternity wards etc. so women could work while having kids at the same time...

Maybe Japan will have the same developments...
The Korean otaku that married his Fate Testarossa body pillow.

[www.youtube.com]

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I asked if I have "Time For L-Gaim" but I got "No Reply From The Wind".
It's not just Japan: [www.theatlantic.com]

-Ginrai
Golden Gate Riot on dead trees at: [www.destroyallcomics.com]
Gcrush Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is anecdotal, but some of the most
> disastrously disorganized and desperate men I have
> known were the most adept at making relationships
> and being sexually successful. They were busted
> up in all measures of "life ability", but found
> escaping into the comfort of a human connection
> one of the most natural things to do. (Note: this
> does not mean they could keep a family together.)

I'd also wager that some of those "bad boys" still lived with their parents or had other even more embarrassing personal problems. These are rarely barriers for "bad boys". More importantly, what "bad boys" do thats different from nerds, otaku, and betas is they put themselves out there. They greet unfamiliar women every chance they get. They go to places where they stand a chance of meeting and engaging the opposite sex and the opposite sexes' intention is to do the same, like bars and clubs. Nerds/otaku/betas think they're going to meet the girl of their dreams by chance, in a romantic way like in anime or whatever, without any personal effort. This could happen, but has about the same odds as winning the lottery. Moreover, a "bad boy" might seem more successful with women due to statistics. Let's say that only 1 out of 10 women that you find attractive and try to approach and flirt with has a favorable response to you. Out of those, lets say that only 1 out 10 will lead to a dating relationship. Now let's say the "bad boy" approaches 10 women a week, that means 1 woman a week responds favorably and he gets rejected the other 9 times. There's 52 weeks in a year, so that means he'll get rejected 468 times, have 52 favorable responses, and at least 5 dating relationships per year. The nerd/otaku/beta might approach 10 women *per year* or less. It would take the nerd/otaku/beta at least 52 years to accomplish 5 dating relationships. Also the "bad boy" obviously handles rejection better and can just shrug it off. The nerd/otaku/beta think they have "standards" and that they're holding out for "quality over quantity". Thats a pretty sexist mindset that dismisses all the women "bad boys" go out with as intellectually inferior companions. Its statistics not social ability or marketability that holds the nerd/otaku/beta back (in other words, its not the woman's fault). There's a middle-ground between these two extremes that produces results (a long-term, complimentary, give-and-take, sexual relationship where each person reveals and accepts the others flaws) without being a pick up artist.

The point of all this is, aren't there places where Japanese nerd/otaku/betas can go to "put themselves out there" and meet and engage the opposite sex with a chance of fostering a dating relationship? Or do they just make excuses for themselves for why they'll be forever alone (such as Aspergers or autism or other bullshit)? Do they even try to make themselves presentable such as by cleaning themselves up or maybe working out (even if they have a shitty job and live with their parents)?

Truthfully, I'm glad people like them exist and that their numbers are increasing. It means less competition for me.

--------------------------
I want YOU for Moé Sucks Army



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2011 09:26AM by Scopedog.
Anonymous User
Scopedog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The nerd/otaku/beta might
> approach 10 women *per year* or less. It would
> take the nerd/otaku/beta at least 52 years to
> accomplish 5 dating relationships.

Scopedog is absolutely a nominee for "Most Depressing Statistic Reported In 2011" with that one...
Scopedog Wrote:
>
> Moreover, a "bad boy" might seem more
> successful with women due to statistics.

"Whatever, man, I'll ask a hundred chicks, y'know? Maybe I get 99 nos. That's fine - slide it on, slide it on, whatever. Maybe that hundredth chick? Likes to fuck on a pile of trash."

-Paul Segal

"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2011 03:23PM by asterphage.
Edit: Ah never mind.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I asked if I have "Time For L-Gaim" but I got "No Reply From The Wind".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2011 08:57PM by Vincent Z..
[twitpic.com]

source:
[www.reddit.com]

this is now a "men are insane and awful" thread

because we are

-Paul Segal

"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2011 09:33PM by asterphage.
Paptimus Scirocco was right
Scopedog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Its statistics not social ability or marketability
> that holds the nerd/otaku/beta back (in other
> words, its not the woman's fault).

I liked how you worked the numbers, but it's not entirely a mechanical process. There is a huge degree of social ability involved. The, "My name's John. Wanna fuck?" approach can lead to easy casual encounters, but it will also turn off many potential partners because of the creep factor. More successful gaming in the numbers involves charisma, self-confidence, and being able to read other people's reactions to get that first encounter rolling.

Put another way, a lot of these guys don't have the confidence to just walk up to a woman and say, "Hi, my name's John. What's yours? Nice to meet you." Or their view of the world is so particularized that they don't see this type of thing as a priority. And it's in that sense that I feel like society has failed them. Few things should be more valuable than a loving human embrace. How did we fail to teach them that?


> The point of all this is, aren't there places
> where Japanese nerd/otaku/betas can go to "put
> themselves out there" and meet and engage the
> opposite sex with a chance of fostering a dating
> relationship? Or do they just make excuses for
> themselves for why they'll be forever alone (such
> as Aspergers or autism or other bullshit)? Do
> they even try to make themselves presentable such
> as by cleaning themselves up or maybe working out
> (even if they have a shitty job and live with
> their parents)?

Matt might need to correct me on this, but there's a huge social stigma attached to people who so willingly identify with a reclusive lifestyle. It's like wearing a banner that says, "I'm a mouth-breathing panty sniffer and damn proud of it!" Their obsession with a particular genre or character is symptomatic of deeper problems. Things that go beyond grappling with limited job prospects and poor self-image into the realm of pervasive, deranged values as deleterious coping mechanisms. Again, no easy fix.
Vincent Z. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So you just want people to stop what they're
> doing...

If people were better equipped to deal with life they wouldn't need moe. There would be no market for it.

I think part of the reason people have trouble understanding why things like moe-obsession are detrimental is because they have a limited understanding of social values. They're too rigid to grapple with contradictions like hypocrisy.

It's like this. There are certain things that are appropriate/inappropriate to say/think/do in public. But those things do not always correlate to how people actually speak/think/act in all situations. This is not hypocrisy. This is life. Being able to deal with it is the essence of maturity.

Retreating from the complexity of life into the simplicity of moe-anime is counter productive. It perpetuates values that are detrimental because they are ill-equipped to address real situations. It's regressive.
MSW
I know what "nerds" and "otaku" are, but what are "betas"?
MSW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know what "nerds" and "otaku" are, but what are
> "betas"?


They're pre-release nerdtaku.
Looks like otakus will be able to feel some love too (or not):

[entertainment.slashdot.org]
Gcrush Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I liked how you worked the numbers, but it's not
> entirely a mechanical process. There is a huge
> degree of social ability involved. The, "My
> name's John. Wanna fuck?" approach can lead to
> easy casual encounters

I expected that my post would be interpreted sexually so I didn't mention sex until near the end of my post and only in the context of a healthy monogomous relationship. Before that I only refered to meeting, engaging, and eventually dating the opposite sex. When I used the term "favorable response" I didn't mean the woman grabbing the guy's dick, shoving it up her rectum, and demanding to have her ass pounded until she's unconscious, I meant the woman not turning and walking the other way or perhaps being flattered and open to further pleasantries. Its something easy to work on and probably never too late to start.


> but it will also turn off
> many potential partners because of the creep
> factor. More successful gaming in the numbers
> involves charisma, self-confidence, and being able
> to read other people's reactions to get that first
> encounter rolling.

Whether sex is your goal or not, its probable that 9 out of 10 will not be interested in you for any number of reasons. Not taking it personally is a step in dealing with perceived rejection. You obviously can't be a total greasy, fat, stinky, leering creep. If you're interested in meeting women, you're probably not going to be interested in the greasy, fat, stinky, leering creepy ones so you should at least compromise enough to put as much effort into your own appearance as you would expect a woman to.


> Put another way, a lot of these guys don't have
> the confidence to just walk up to a woman and say,
> "Hi, my name's John. What's yours? Nice to meet
> you." Or their view of the world is so
> particularized that they don't see this type of
> thing as a priority. And it's in that sense that
> I feel like society has failed them. Few things
> should be more valuable than a loving human
> embrace. How did we fail to teach them that?

If they're marrying moe pillows then companionship is definitely a priority. They have somehow failed to identify the real problem perhaps they lack the neccessary introspection to recognize the real problems and address them. It seems to be true that most people don't need to be taught or learn how to socialize with the opposite sex, it happens naturally as the develop from childhood. That doesn't mean its impossible to teach or learn. One of the reasons I hate moe and loli is because I feel it enables, facilitates, and perpetuates this problem.


> Matt might need to correct me on this, but there's
> a huge social stigma attached to people who so
> willingly identify with a reclusive lifestyle.
> It's like wearing a banner that says, "I'm a
> mouth-breathing panty sniffer and damn proud of
> it!" Their obsession with a particular genre or
> character is symptomatic of deeper problems.
> Things that go beyond grappling with limited job
> prospects and poor self-image into the realm of
> pervasive, deranged values as deleterious coping
> mechanisms. Again, no easy fix.

Thats why I'm recruiting for the Moé Sucks Army.

--------------------------
I want YOU for Moé Sucks Army



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2011 05:04PM by Scopedog.
Scopedog Wrote:
>
> If they're marrying moe pillows then companionship
> is definitely a priority. They have somehow
> failed to identify the real problem perhaps they
> lack the necessary introspection to recognize the
> real problems and address them.

Something I noted earlier, which I think is still relevant, is the shared perception between American and Japanese "alone forever" guys that women are evil, greedy, heartless, etc and that therefore it's better to just give up on real human companionship. One can see many examples of this among moe otaku, for instance, when reading Japanese posts that the writers from Sankaku Complex translate in their various Japanese culture news updates. (As reprehensible as that site is, they love to turn the spotlight on men who are even more pathetic than themselves.)

I think something that needs to be ascertained - and which we can't reason out abstractly - is just how much the phenomena we're discussing are the result of simply shyness, lack of self-confidence, and inability to casually approach women, and how much it's the result of active rejection of normal social interaction with the opposite sex. Certainly these two causes have somewhat different effects in the person experiencing them. Lack of self-confidence seems less likely to be expressed as misogyny and more likely to be expressed as self-loathing. However, the rejection of flirtation, dating, etc as a "rigged game", that allows others to take advantage of our lonely guy, is tied up with the perception that everyone else is wrong and flawed and that society is unfair to them. However, I would guess that the former reaction - shyness, lack of confidence - is more likely to be caused by the failure of their life experiences to properly socialize them. Whereas the latter reaction is caused by something more integral to the person, as it requires them to overreact to every perceived slight or marginalization by a woman.

I feel like I'm doing a really bad job of explaining this, mostly because I'm writing imprecisely and structuring sentences poorly, so feel free to just excuse and ignore this post.

-Paul Segal

"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
Listen to Gcrush and Scopedog. Moe is bad m'kay. Abstain from having any fetishes.

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I asked if I have "Time For L-Gaim" but I got "No Reply From The Wind".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2011 09:08PM by Vincent Z..
asterphage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I feel like I'm doing a really bad job of
> explaining this, mostly because I'm writing
> imprecisely and structuring sentences poorly, so
> feel free to just excuse and ignore this post.

No, you're on to something. If I'm reading you right, you're talking about the difference between being reclusive and being misogynistic. It's appropriate since plenty of extroverted misogynists have "measurably" successful lives, whereas a reclusive one is practically guaranteed not to. Here's my armchair analysis - their inflated egos are overcompensating for low self image and preventing them from accepting rejection as a normal condition of social life.

As for healthy, integrative socialization... Matt should comment on this. My experience in parts of the world neighboring Japan showed that they had some specific ideas about proper socialization between sexes (and relationships). By specific, I mean "puritanical". Boys and girls were segregated in public life as young as seven, and it was improper for a couple of any age to be together in public unless they were related, married, or part of a larger group. This is not to say that young people didn't date, but they either did it in groups or they did it covertly.

This was so deeply ingrained where I lived that if a man tried to approach a woman he didn't know with conversation in public it would be enough to get him labeled a "creep" or a "perv". Talking to strangers was borderline sociopathic behavior because strangers, by definition, are people you do not know and it is wrong and dangerous to talk to people you don't know. Why, if you don't know someone how can you trust them? You can't. Ergo, people who talk to strangers - as in people you don't know that want to talk to you, a stranger - are squirrely folk that should be avoided.

Most of us would not see that as particularly healthy, especially when it comes to having positive interactions with members of the opposite sex. BUT, it did have a certain logic to it that Matt alluded to earlier when he said women were typically expected to get educated, employed, married, and pregnant. The traditional notion of a successful couple revolved more around parallel lives than intertwined ones. Many old school men that I knew had firm distinctions between what qualities made for a good wife versus a good lover. And keep in mind that it's the more traditional women who are reproducing younger and more often.

Again, I ain't talkin'bout Japan. But if Japan is similar to what I've described, the issue is what would adaptive socialization be and how would you get nerdtaku into it? It's not an easy thing to address since socialization is an integrative issue. It overlaps with so many aspects of society that it becomes difficult to tease out.

But I think it starts with getting them to second base with ugly fat girls and building up from there.
MattAlt (Admin)
The arguments over the social deficits of die-hard lolicon/moe fans are nothing new:

[neojaponisme.com]

There is a certain segment of any population that will prefer to retreat into fantasy simply because they can. It is a luxury of a highly developed society.

Complicating the situation is that there is actually an argument to be made that things are actually LESS extreme now than they once were. The average moe production is so absurdly oblique in its sexuality that even the government and police departments feel comfortable embracing the imagery. (None of which, of course, stops moe-taku from endlessly bitching about how oppressed they are.)

In the Seventies, though, the nudity and adult situations creeping into manga and anime read by kids sparked huge PTA protests. That deeply affected the industry as a whole and many artists in particular, most notably Go Nagai (who actually had to go into hiding briefly because of fallout from "Harenchi Gakuen.")

But (to paraphrase Chuck D) it takes a nation of suckers to hold fetishists back, and the genre popped back up again very publicly in the Eighties as "lolicon" (some of which was seriously over the top even by modern standards). And that was during the economic bubble, when the Japanese economy was flying high! So it isn't even a socio-economic thing. There were apparently as many oblivious social outcasts back then as there are today. It's just that the internet makes their products -- and antics -- more obvious.
MattAlt Wrote:
>
> There were apparently as
> many oblivious social outcasts back then as there
> are today. It's just that the internet makes their
> products -- and antics -- more obvious.

But being a moe or lolicon fan isn't actually equivalent to being a social outcast.
I don't profess to know anything about Japanese social dynamics, but an obvious alternate theory would be this: Decades ago, people who just wanted to retreat into fantasy had greater pressures to participate in society, and so had to maintain a relatively "normal" life while diging their interests. Today, they're more comfortable completely withdrawing, and openly expressing their interests as well as their disdain for mainstream society (partially because of the ease of finding support from like-minded individuals).

-Paul Segal

"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
MattAlt (Admin)
My experience in parts of the world neighboring Japan showed that they had some specific ideas about proper socialization between sexes (and relationships).

I'm American. I don't speak for Japan. But my sense is that the gender stratification you describe doesn't really happen here. Not anymore, at least, or rather not in the big urban centers that I am familiar with. Women have more freedom socially than ever before -- to choose mates, to choose career paths, to choose to have children or not have children.

But we're talking about different things, I think. Japanese culture is extraordinarily open to sexual variations, at least as far as men are concerned -- with the proviso that you keep it private. Nobody thinks you're going to hell for getting turned on by schoolgirls, or cross-dressing, or wearing rubber panties or whatever. In fact, it's sort of expected that people's sexuality takes the form of niches, some quite broad and some incredibly tiny. A look into any Japanese porn shop will show you that nearly anything goes here. But these things have their place.

That place is in your bedroom. The "crime" (so to speak) of lolicon and moe fans isn't that they have deviant sexual tastes but rather that they don't have the common sense to keep them to their own damn selves. Die-hard moe fans, almost by definition, are in denial about the sexual connotations of their interests. I suspect this self-defeating prophecy is what leads to all sort of troubles for them in real-life interactions, both online and offline.
MattAlt (Admin)
But being a moe or lolicon fan isn't actually equivalent to being a social outcast.

Precisely. This feeds into what I was saying above, and also to what "Ejisonta" is saying in the article I linked to on Neojaponisme. Being into this stuff isn't a social death sentence. Refusing to admit that it's your silly little sexual predilection and (ahem) throwing it in the face of non-devotees is what causes problems.

More fucking power to anyone who gets off on maids or moe shows or whatever. Life's too short not to seek out pleasure when and where you can. Just don't delude yourself as to the sexual nature of it all, and remember that the vast majority of us simply don't want to hear about it. This isn't called prudishness. It's called common courtesy.
so how do we fix it
MattAlt (Admin)
well we could just keep linking blog posts where Daryl Surat makes an ass of himself

works for my blog
MattAlt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm American. I don't speak for Japan. But my
> sense is that the gender stratification you
> describe doesn't really happen here.
> But we're talking about different things, I think.
> Japanese culture is extraordinarily open to sexual
> variations, at least as far as men are concerned
> -- with the proviso that you keep it private.

This is definitely different than the area I'm familiar with on one level. People were not at all open to sexual "deviation" as it were. This is me just talking out my ass, but it might have something to do with the large Christian movement that took hold there over 100 year ago. Outside of the largest city it would have been difficult to find niche sex shops. Even the PRoN channels on TV were highly censored, with everyone wearing underwear.

Having said that, it was similar in that people were really focused on keeping sexuality (among other things) private. Sex was the 800lb Unacknowledged Pleasure in the room. There were love motels and room salons practically everywhere, but people went to great pains to ensure that they were never seen coming or going from them. And while ribald jokes were standard fare at drinking engagements, frank sex-talk happened only in close company.


> But these things have their place.
> That place is in your bedroom.

I'm on-board with this. I tried to explain something similar to Vince, but of course it went right over his head. Any thoughts on what makes moe fans so reluctant to admit to the sexual overtones in the genre? Or why they love to toss it up in people's faces?
MattAlt (Admin)
I think it's just general social cluelessness, amplified by the internet's ability to give even the meekest introvert the courage to speak up. No matter how niche an interest, there's always a site/BBS/chat room out there with like-minded people, and that can give one an exaggerated sense of how accepted or popular their interest is among humanity at large.

When you think about it, though, the root behavior, the "throwing in people's faces," occurs at all levels of society. Like, the boor who can't stop talking about his sexual conquests to his office-mates and such. Or the guy who tries to force friends to listen to extended political or racial or gender diatribes. 99% of the time people just grin and bear it and pray it ends quickly rather than confronting the offender, so the offender never gets any feedback. It's simple human nature for a certain personality type not to realize what a doofus he or she is acting like. (This is why books like "Catcher in the Rye" and films like "Taxi Driver," both of which feature moé-taku-esqe protagonists, are considered such classics of storytelling. They captured that "social outsider" mindset near perfectly. As social animals, we are fascinated by those who can't or don't want to fit in.)

You can always console yourself by remembering it could be worse. I have a pal whose immediate boss a few jobs back was a guy who was a total, unrepentant scat-o-phile or whatever you call it, and would gleefully regale his male co-workers with unasked-for stories of whatever bodily fluids he'd sprayed/been sprayed with the night before. (That nobody filed a sexual harassment claim is testament to the open-mindedness of Japanese as regarding fetishes, the lack of working sexual harassment laws, or both.) Compared to that, moe fans fawning over their latest girls-doing-nothing series starts to sound seriously tame.
asterphage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Something I noted earlier, which I think is still
> relevant, is the shared perception between
> American and Japanese "alone forever" guys that
> women are evil, greedy, heartless, etc and that
> therefore it's better to just give up on real
> human companionship. One can see many examples of
> this among moe otaku, for instance, when reading
> Japanese posts that the writers from Sankaku
> Complex translate in their various Japanese
> culture news updates. (As reprehensible as that
> site is, they love to turn the spotlight on men
> who are even more pathetic than themselves.)
>
> I think something that needs to be ascertained -
> and which we can't reason out abstractly - is just
> how much the phenomena we're discussing are the
> result of simply shyness, lack of self-confidence,
> and inability to casually approach women, and how
> much it's the result of active rejection of normal
> social interaction with the opposite sex.
>
> Certainly these two causes have somewhat different
> effects in the person experiencing them. Lack of
> self-confidence seems less likely to be expressed
> as misogyny and more likely to be expressed as
> self-loathing.

Although I believe you are talking about confidence in the context of relationships, your statement here actually usually applies to a lot of behaviour.

I would like to give my view, based on my personal experience. I am an extremely shy guy and have trouble 'seeing' when people are interested in me. As I have next to no relationship experience I am not sure how to react either...so I prefer to listen and observe (which looks like extreme shyness). I also have some stuff in my past that causes self-esteem issues. I absolutely suck at starting relationships: I understand how they theoretically work, but I lack the confidence to start one.
On the other hand, socializing with women is really, really easy, including talking about sensitive subjects that normally are not discussed with strange men (women's little problems and family life). Several older women have said they think I am good son-in-law material (jokes allowed :D ). Now and then I also get a beta-male reaction from a woman: first they claim they have a boyfriend, then start flirting (really annoying by the way). As far as I can see, the trick is to show interest in people's work and life (also works with guys!).

So I think the rest of your paragraph is absolutely spot-on: It is not the shyness that is the problem, but likely part of the personality of the lonely guys. Perhaps they put every single girl on a pedestal, try to force their views on her, won't accept negative comments, or take everything that doesn't go according to their fantasy as an insult.
And perhaps they simply choose the wrong girls, because when I see and hear some couples the woman seems to accept quite horrible behaviour from the guy. So even guys with the manners of a pig can get a girl (but not every girl).

However, the rejection of
> flirtation, dating, etc as a "rigged game", that
> allows others to take advantage of our lonely guy,
> is tied up with the perception that everyone else
> is wrong and flawed and that society is unfair to
> them. However, I would guess that the former
> reaction - shyness, lack of confidence - is more
> likely to be caused by the failure of their life
> experiences to properly socialize them. Whereas
> the latter reaction is caused by something more
> integral to the person, as it requires them to
> overreact to every perceived slight or
> marginalization by a woman.
>
> I feel like I'm doing a really bad job of
> explaining this, mostly because I'm writing
> imprecisely and structuring sentences poorly, so
> feel free to just excuse and ignore this post.
MSW
Not to get into anyone's personal business. But...

thomas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now and then I also get a beta-male reaction
> from a woman: first they claim they have a
> boyfriend, then start flirting (really annoying by
> the way).

Why is that annoying? So they have a boyfriend...BUT they are flirting with you. There are basically two types of flirting: flirting for fun and flirting with intent. Most likely they are flirting for fun, so flirt back with them! It sounds you could use the practice.
MattAlt Wrote:
>
> Die-hard moe fans, almost by
> definition, are in denial about the sexual
> connotations of their interests. I suspect this
> self-defeating prophecy is what leads to all sort
> of troubles for them in real-life interactions,
> both online and offline.

I actually disagree with this. I think there's a real distinction between a die-hard moe fan and someone who spends a significant amount of time collecting fetish porn, or going to the strip club, or whatever, instead of engaging in real interpersonal relationships. I think that difference is that the moe fan is actually engaging in emotional surrogacy. I'm sure most of them are unaware of or actively declaiming the sexual component of their interest, but I don't think they'd be moe fans (as opposed to fans of something more explicit) if they weren't mainly seeking a simulacrum of emotion.

-Paul Segal

"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
What about just enjoying moe shows because they're you know, fun? Same with robot shows.

You don't need to intellectualize everything. I'm not supporting anti-intellectualism, I feel a need that anime (which is entertainment first and foremost) is just that (entertainment) and not some codifier for society's problems.

I bet most here that complain about moe anime haven't actually watched any.

I'm just tired of this whining about social issues ON WHAT IS A TOY FORUM.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I asked if I have "Time For L-Gaim" but I got "No Reply From The Wind".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2011 04:25PM by Vincent Z..
<<I'm just tired of this whining about social issues ON WHAT IS A TOY FORUM.>>

The irony is delicious. I seem to recall many a TBDX denizen noting the same about you and your moe posts.

---------------------------------
[pgaijin.blogspot.com]
MattAlt (Admin)
"I think that difference is that the moe fan is actually engaging in emotional surrogacy."

Good point. Perhaps another word for it might be "virtual camaraderie?"

That's what's always struck me about moé versus outright porn: while porn is sad in its own way it's more about satisfying a physical need that can't be publicly, or even in some cases realistically, satisfied (especially if it's some off the wall fetish). The virtual intimacy of moé, on the other hand, is something that can be satisfied openly and even fairly easily in real life, with a little bit of effort on the part of the person seeking said intimacy.
I totally missed this piece when it originally went up. Seems relevant to this discussion:
[www.cnngo.com]

-Paul Segal

"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
This is comedy gold:

Quote

CNNGo: Doesn't the client get suspicious when you cancel the meeting last minute?

"Sakura": Not really, they just move onto the next "girl" -- who is often me.

This service is like an industrialized version of GIRLs* on the internet who flirt with other people who are also men despite both being heterosexual. However, it goes beyond that and is also akin to a psychological support service (more commonly known as Help Lines in the West).

I wouldn't be surprised that this business model would also work fairly well outside Japan; in fact I guess it is already in use in a more explicit version in certain erotic phone lines, where apparently quite a few customers confess to a bit more than sexual desire. A less explicit version of that might actually also work.

* Guy In Real Life, for those that are so closetted they don't know the term...

And I think the following is quite applicable all over the world:

Quote

This brings me to the subject of how Japanese people use social networking sites like MySpace and Facebook.

There is an SNS site in Japan called Mixi, and no one puts their real picture on their profile pages. It's almost like they are embarrassed by their face -- or that they will seem too full of themselves if they paste their real picture all over their profile. So instead, they use avatars, manga charactures of themselves, etc. Many people don't want to stand out.
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