Nuttin' but Busou Shinki here

Posted by Vincent Z. 
[www.amiami.jp]

[www.amiami.jp]

Not Revoltech or ffigma, but I had to post this somewhere.

BTW, Busou Shinki's are meant to be 1/1 scale robots.



[mod edit: new title]

--------------------------------------------------------------

I asked if I have "Time For L-Gaim" but I got "No Reply From The Wind".



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2011 10:57AM by Sanjeev.
Vincent Z. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not Revoltech or ffigma, but I had to post this
> somewhere.

No, seriously - you did not have to post those in this thread.
hey now. busou shinki is just good wholesome mecha musume. if the designer of the ZZ Gundam can make a living off of that, who are you to argue?
VF5SS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hey now. busou shinki is just good wholesome mecha
> musume. if the designer of the ZZ Gundam can make
> a living off of that, who are you to argue?

Teh Market has spoken, and it said, "Pubertybots."
i don't get it
VF5SS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i don't get it

Buso Shinki is the "perfect" marriage of pubescent girls and robo-fashion.
VF5SS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i don't get it

I think Mr. Crush is in a roundabout way asking you to get him some pubertybots for his birfday. Get some for me, too, while you're at it.

Anyway, despite the presence of little girlies in 80s mecha anime, there are some key differences between, say Gundam ZZ and this new pervy stuff:

1) Those 80s cartoons were aimed at actual kids, so the girlie characters weren't intended for an audience that would slaver at them with adult, fetishistic intent;

2) The presence of little girlies in those 80s toons comprised an admittedly weird and somewhat puerile and prurient (especially in Orguss) sideshow away from the centerpiece of these shows, which were macho robots and little boy heroes. (This mecha musume stuff, which I had to Wiki just now, to my own regret, actually represents a pretty big shift, replacing the macho robots/little boy heroes with moebot amalgams as the centerpiece, aimed at a completely different--at least in chronological age--audience).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2011 06:27PM by gingaio.
gingaio Wrote:
>
> (This mecha musume stuff, which I had to Wiki just
> now, to my own regret, actually represents a
> pretty big shift, replacing the macho
> robots/little boy heroes with moebot amalgams as
> the centerpiece, aimed at a completely
> different--at least in chronological
> age--audience).

I think VF's point is that this stuff has always been with us. The first edition of Akitaka's MS Girls book was published in '94 (many of the illustrations having been originally published earlier), the "Armored Lady" Zeta Gundam girl and Valkyrie girl model kits are from '85, and that style of robot-girls showed up in a more restrained fashion in the original Gundam MSV model kit line from 1983, as "nose art" decals. (The mecha musume being something that basically derives from aircraft nose art, passing from the military modeling otaku community into robot otaku.) These are just the most prominent examples. The use of cheesecake has been intertwined with robot anime for as long as adult robot anime fandom has existed - which goes back to around the same time we see that lolicon influence.


VF5SS Wrote:
> not really. shinkis vary greatly in design and
> style. some a tacticool like waffebunny and some
> are stylish like benio

Man, if these guys don't get how Waffebunny and Benio look cool in a completely nonsexual way, then I don't think there's any basis for mutual understanding here. I mean, yeah, Waffebunny has a ridiculous pneumatic bosom when all geared up, but put Benio in her armor and there's no sense of femininity to her whatsoever - she's just a cool, impossible woman samurai.

-Paul Segal

"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
asterphage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> gingaio Wrote:
> >
> > (This mecha musume stuff, which I had to Wiki
> just
> > now, to my own regret, actually represents a
> > pretty big shift, replacing the macho
> > robots/little boy heroes with moebot amalgams
> as
> > the centerpiece, aimed at a completely
> > different--at least in chronological
> > age--audience).
>
> I think VF's point is that this stuff has always
> been with us... The first edition of Akitaka's MS
> Girls book was published in '94 (many of the
> illustrations having been originally published
> earlier),

Right, I get that. And what I was saying is that the almost exclusively adult audience for this confluence of mecha and girlie art is a more recent phenomenon. This art may have existed before, but it wasn't pandering, to the level it's pandering now, to the audience that's buying it now. I was 18 or 19 when that MS Girls book came out, and I'll cop to having bought it then ("out of curiosity"...seriously), and then immediately feeling weird about having bought it and promptly selling it afterward. I think that's a period when this moe stuff really started to take off.

> the "Armored Lady" Zeta Gundam girl and
> Valkyrie girl model kits are from '85, and that
> style of robot-girls showed up in a more
> restrained fashion in the original Gundam MSV
> model kit line from 1983, as "nose art" decals.

Which itself is derived from actual WWII pin-up girl nose art (featuring women older than the ones featured in the stuff we're discussing) as a nod toward the militaristic realism that the mecha designers were aspiring to back then:

[www.dotellall.com]

The idea of throwing girlie art on a macho machine was a way of bringing the "real" into "sci-fi." Now, the idea of throwing macho machine parts on ambiguously aged females--what's the intended effect there?

And again, what was the audience for these model kits back in the 80s? I'm not saying that it couldn't have been adults. I'm just saying that they weren't intended primarily for an adult audience the way this stuff is intended now. I have a hard time imagining guys in their 20s and 30s back in the 80s being the core buyers for these things.

When you consider the full context (social, political, historical, along with authorial intent and intended audience) for these things, and not just the artworks themselves, there are differences abounding.

> (The mecha musume being something that basically
> derives from aircraft nose art, passing from the
> military modeling otaku community into robot
> otaku.) These are just the most prominent
> examples. The use of cheesecake has been
> intertwined with robot anime for as long as adult
> robot anime fandom has existed - which goes back
> to around the same time we see that lolicon
> influence.
>
Right. But cheesecake featuring women (as in the WWII nose art examples) and cheesecake featuring not-women are different things.

> Man, if these guys don't get how Waffebunny and
> Benio look cool in a completely nonsexual way,
> then I don't think there's any basis for mutual
> understanding here. I mean, yeah, Waffebunny has a
> ridiculous pneumatic bosom when all geared up, but
> put Benio in her armor and there's no sense of
> femininity
to her whatsoever - she's just a cool,
> impossible woman samurai.


I don't know. Isn't that contradictory? I mean, if gender for these items is so arbitrary, why are they almost exclusively girlies? And isn't the fact that this is a girlie badass samurai the exact reason you're pointing this out as being cool and unique? Not gonna argue for this being moe or pervy or whatnot, but that there is something about the girlie form being fetishized here.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2011 07:47PM by gingaio.
gingaio Wrote:
>
> And again, what was the audience for these model
> kits back in the 80s? I'm not saying that it
> couldn't have been adults. I'm just saying that
> they weren't intended primarily for an adult
> audience the way this stuff is intended now. I
> have a hard time imagining guys in their 20s and
> 30s back in the 80s being the core buyers for
> these things.

Well, like I was saying, I think the point VF made is that this era - the era of the first Gundam sequels - was the birth of the adult mecha anime fandom as we know it. It's the Gundam model kits that really launched the adult robot merchandise market - spurred on by the interest of those mil otaku who love their nose art and "real type" olive drab paint schemes. The rise of the lolicon otaku is a parallel development that worked together with other otaku waves to form this adult market.


> > put Benio in her armor and there's no sense of
> > femininity to her whatsoever - she's just a
> > cool, impossible woman samurai.
>
> I don't know. Isn't that contradictory? I mean, if
> gender for these items is so arbitrary, why are
> they almost exclusively girlies? Not gonna argue
> for this being moe or pervy or whatnot, but that
> there is something about the girlie form being
> fetishized here.

I can't speak to why there are no male busou shinkis, except that it may be a marketing concern (a belief that the guys who pay 40k-60k yen for a small human figure are less likely to buy male characters than, say, Revoltech consumers who only pony up 20k-30k yen?). If they did boy shinkis I'd certainly be just as interested, depending on the individual gear designs.

Granted, a lot of the busou shinkis, mostly the abstract sci-fi ones like those Vic Vipers, are obviously sexualized - even the design of their armored forms emphasizes their bare thighs and swimsuit area above all else. Others, though, particularly the animal-themed ones, are characterized by a sort of pure asexual "cuteness". And the more militaristic ones are, in my eyes, neutral in terms of their female character identity. Granted, they are still female characters, but it seems that the point of the military shinkis' design is to bring them in line with the masculine motifs of their design inspirations. I believe it's the same appeal as Motoko Kusanagi or Deunan Knute, or any number of recent Hollywood flicks (the Resident Evils, Doomsday, Salt, etc) where sex appeal is secondary, or discarded entirely, in favor of a focus on the CONCEPT of a female action lead.

-Paul Segal

"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
asterphage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And the more militaristic ones are, in
> my eyes, neutral in terms of their female
> character identity. Granted, they are still female
> characters, but it seems that the point of the
> military shinkis' design is to bring them in line
> with the masculine motifs of their design
> inspirations. I believe it's the same appeal as
> Motoko Kusanagi or Deunan Knute, or any number of
> recent Hollywood flicks (the Resident Evils,
> Doomsday, Salt, etc) where sex appeal is
> secondary, or discarded entirely, in favor of a
> focus on the CONCEPT of a female action lead.

Kusanagi's an interesting character, certainly more so than any of these others mentioned, but sexuality and gross sexualization seem to be preconditions for her appeal. Or at least that was the intent. Watching the anime, I kept wanting her to put on some clothes. I mean, her uniform basically is a pink leotard thong (and let's not forget the infamous excised pages from the manga), and Knute/Briareos is basically a play on Beauty and the (Mechanical) Beast.

Again, I'd have to say that saying the appeal of mecha girlies is due to the idea of having a female lead, and then saying that sex appeal is unimportant or easily discarded in such instances is fairly self-contradictory.

The last anime example I can think of in which a female action lead was presented with minimal overt sexualization is Balsa from Moribito. And look at how popular that character is compared to other sexy female leads.

Hey, VZ, what do you think of Balsa?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2011 08:49PM by gingaio.
gingaio Wrote:
>
> Again, I'd have to say that saying the appeal of
> mecha girlies is due to the idea of having a
> female lead, and then saying that sex appeal is
> unimportant or easily discarded in such instances
> is fairly self-contradictory.

So you don't think there's a distinction between female leads who are appealing because they show skin, and female leads who are appealing because of the mere *fact* that they are female and are in a typically male role? I think that's actually a major component of the current American infatuation with female action heroes in movies - characters like the aforementioned Salt, Jovovich's lead in Resident Evil, the recent film Hanna, many others. This idea of a character who is stoic, dispassionate, thinks nothing of violence - it would be cliche for a male character, but it feels fresher with a female lead. I recognize the hollowness of creating appeal by making a fictional woman behave the way we're used to seeing fictional men behave, but I'm still kind of a sucker for it - and, given my personal bias, I feel confident in identifying this as the aesthetic channeled by toys like Benio and Waffebunny.

> The last anime example I can think of in which a
> female action lead was presented with minimal
> overt sexualization is Balsa from Moribito. And
> look at how popular that character is compared to
> other sexy female leads.

Man, Moribito was pretty fucking good. A little bit cliche, in comparison to Kamiyama's other work, but really enjoyable.
But you know what, she's a perfect example of the thing I'm talking about. Balsa is essentially a female Kenshin Himura. Her motivation and behavior are so similar to Kenshin's and to the archetype he embodies that I couldn't help but see Moribito as a commentary on the cliche of the stoic but gentle hero seeking their redemption.
(it also has something to say about the conflict between Japanese traditions of spirituality and proper behavior versus social and political changes, but that's somewhat undermined by its taking place in a world where kami are real and physically present)

-Paul Segal

"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
asterphage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So you don't think there's a distinction between
> female leads who are appealing because they show
> skin, and female leads who are appealing because
> of the mere *fact* that they are female and are in
> a typically male role?

I think you've got a valid criticism there, but it's on a different trajectory. All of the examples you cited - Salt, Alice, Hannah - are still basically sexpots. An example of a woman straight up filling a cliched male role (psycho serial killer!) without the T.N.A. would be Theron in Monster. Goddamn, she went full-ugly for that and it worked magic.




But I can't recall any woman ever doing that for an action role. Can anyone?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2011 09:28PM by Gcrush.
Attachments:
open | download - monster.jpg (61.1 KB)
asterphage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> gingaio Wrote:
> >
> > Again, I'd have to say that saying the appeal
> of
> > mecha girlies is due to the idea of having a
> > female lead, and then saying that sex appeal is
> > unimportant or easily discarded in such
> instances
> > is fairly self-contradictory.
>
> So you don't think there's a distinction between
> female leads who are appealing because they show
> skin, and female leads who are appealing because
> of the mere *fact* that they are female and are in
> a typically male role?

That's not what I'm saying. At all.

The reason I brought up Balsa is that I do think there are (albeit, extremely rare) examples of female leads who are interesting characters not defined by being sexualized.

Kusanagi is not one of those examples. Neither is Knute. Neither is Jovovich in Resident Evil, who, for god's sake, actually gets naked and shows her titties...and for what reason, exactly? To empower the primary teen girl audience that doesn't exist?

As for Angelina Jolie, she's, if anything, the prototypical femme fatale figure, all the way back to noir, to Chandler and Hammett, to Hitchcock, and back all the way up to now. She's hot and deadly. She can fire a gun. She's half naked a lot of the time. She has a lot of sex in her flicks. It's your usual mishmash of thanatos/eros, sex and violence, if you will. That doesn't strike me as all that refreshing or non-cliched.
>
> Man, Moribito was pretty fucking good. A little
> bit cliche, in comparison to Kamiyama's other
> work, but really enjoyable.

I liked it, too, though I thought, as far as the presentation of the female lead, that it was way less cliched than S.A.C. 1 and 2.

> But you know what, she's a perfect example of the
> thing I'm talking about. Balsa is essentially a
> female Kenshin Himura. Her motivation and behavior
> are so similar to Kenshin's and to the archetype
> he embodies that I couldn't help but see Moribito
> as a commentary on the cliche of the stoic but
> gentle hero seeking their redemption....

...and she has an affectionate relationship with a dude that she doesn't have sex with during the series and she keeps her clothes on, and instead of relying on the dude for protection, she's the one protecting him, and he's the one relegated to the healer/nurturer role...yeah, there are definitely non-stereotypical qualities about her, and that's why I brought her up and why VZ doesn't dig her.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2011 09:34PM by gingaio.
Gcrush Wrote:
>
> I think you've got a valid criticism there, but
> it's on a different trajectory. All of the
> examples you cited - Salt, Alice, Hannah - are
> still basically sexpots.

You think the lead character from Hanna is a sexpot? You lost me there. Now that's some lolita complex for sure.

> But I can't recall any woman ever doing that for
> an action role. Can anyone?

Yeah, but it's hard enough to find GUYS doing that for a lead action role. Everyone is hot in movies.


gingaio Wrote:
>
> The reason I brought up Balsa is that I do think
> there are (albeit, extremely rare) examples of
> female leads who are interesting characters not
> defined by being sexualized.

I'm not talking about interesting characters. I'm talking about a type of superficial appeal that doesn't depend on sexuality or nudity.

> Kusanagi is not one of those examples. Neither is
> Knute. Neither is Jovovich in Resident Evil, who,
> for god's sake, actually gets naked and shows her
> titties...and for what reason, exactly? To empower
> the primary teen girl audience that doesn't
> exist?

Huh, did she? In the first movie, or one of the others? I don't recall that clearly.
And, no, I'm not talking about role models for female audiences at all.

> As for Angelina Jolie, she's, if anything, the
> prototypical femme fatale figure, all the way back
> to noir, to Chandler and Hammett, to Hitchcock,
> and back all the way up to now. She's hot and
> deadly. She can fire a gun. She's half naked a lot
> of the time. She has a lot of sex in her flicks.
> It's your usual mishmash of thanatos/eros, sex and
> violence, if you will. That doesn't strike me as
> all that refreshing or non-cliched.

I think you have to distinguish one film and character from another. Though I didn't see Salt, so I'm assuming from reviews that she doesn't spend half the movie in her underwear - it's a notable and relevant role because the script was written for a MALE lead, and the switch to a female lead was relatively last-minute in preproduction.

-Paul Segal

"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
asterphage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You think the lead character from Hanna is a
> sexpot? You lost me there. Now that's some lolita
> complex for sure.

I'm not saying I was attracted to her, but the way the character was written and shot clearly makes it an issue of sensuality. And, yes, very much in the "budding sexuality" way. Hell, we even see her coming to grips with it via interactions with other characters.


> Yeah, but it's hard enough to find GUYS doing that
> for a lead action role. Everyone is hot in
> movies.

Yes and no. 99% of the female lead roles are HAWT. But the male leads have a huge amount of wiggle room. Benecio del Toro, Vin Diesel, Javier Bardem, Sam Jackson, Robin Williams, and numerous others have what might be called "unconventional" sex appeal. Just turn on Telemundo or Univision broadcast to see this rule followed to its most literal, and logical, conclusion. Tons of T.N.A. surrounding doods with dumpy stomachs and ass-ugly mugs.


> I think you have to distinguish one film and
> character from another.

The character of Salt was as subtle as the Black Widow in Iron Man 2. I seem to remember an underwear scene, too. But I'm willing to admit it might have just been in my imagination.
asterphage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not talking about interesting characters. I'm
> talking about a type of superficial appeal that
> doesn't depend on sexuality or nudity.
>
A lead action female character whose portrayal is devoid of sexualization and whose identity is predicated solely on being an action hero? And who also happens to be a superficial/shallow character? If that was what you were after to begin with, I really can't think of any examples in anime or popular action films.
>
> Huh, did she? In the first movie, or one of the
> others? I don't recall that clearly.
>
First movie.
>
> > As for Angelina Jolie, she's, if anything, the
> > prototypical femme fatale figure, all the way
> back
> > to noir, to Chandler and Hammett, to Hitchcock,
> > and back all the way up to now.
>
> I think you have to distinguish one film and
> character from another.
>
I'm just pointing out the female archetype, and the literary tradition, that most of Jolie's characters and the other characters you mentioned are drawn from. You were making the argument that your sample characters were new/refreshing, and I was trying to say that they weren't.

As far as distinguishing between Jolie's films/characters, I think that when there are lists like "Top 10 Angelina Jolie Sex Scenes," it's not a terrible assumption to make that she belongs to that certain female archetype.

And looking through some of those lists and thinking back to some of her characters, they're not all that different. She's not exactly a character actor.

Anyway, we're getting way OT, even for me.

To sum up, and to cut through the layers of arguments, basically, I was reading what seemed to be some justification or legitimization of the aircraft-parts-or-other-armor-on-girls toys. The argument seemed to be that 1) this is rooted in 80s mecha, and 2) this stuff is not always sexualized.

Personally (and no argument I make will convince people who're into this stuff), I think those arguments don't fly because a lot of historical context and understanding is overlooked or conveniently ignored, and there's not enough distance/perspective from those who are really into this stuff.

Or put more directly by Mr. Crush, "It's one thing to want to slap pornography on your jet aeroplane [e.g., WWII nose art, historical, a grab at mecha realism] and another thing completely to want to slap an aeoplane on your pornography [weird and fetishistic]."

Did some of the pervier elements in fandom maybe take something from the 80s and run with it? Yeah, but what we have now is not what existed in the 80s.

That said, if this stuff is your thing, god bless and keep you. It'll always seem a little kooky to me, just as my toy habit is kooky to those around me. It's just that I don't try to legitimize it to them.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2011 10:15PM by gingaio.
Gcrush Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> asterphage Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Yeah, but it's hard enough to find GUYS doing
> that
> > for a lead action role. Everyone is hot in
> > movies.
>
> Yes and no. 99% of the female lead roles are
> HAWT. But the male leads have a huge amount of
> wiggle room. Benecio del Toro, Vin Diesel, Javier
> Bardem, Sam Jackson, Robin Williams, and numerous
> others have what might be called "unconventional"
> sex appeal. Just turn on Telemundo or Univision
> broadcast to see this rule followed to its most
> literal, and logical, conclusion. Tons of T.N.A.
> surrounding doods with dumpy stomachs and ass-ugly
> mugs.
>
Yup. Action guys do not have to be hot. Case in f-ing point:

[see attached pic]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2011 10:23PM by gingaio.
Attachments:
open | download - Machete.jpg (21.6 KB)
Gcrush Wrote:
> asterphage Wrote:
> > You think the lead character from Hanna is a
> > sexpot? You lost me there. Now that's some
> > lolita complex for sure.
>
> I'm not saying I was attracted to her, but the way
> the character was written and shot clearly makes
> it an issue of sensuality. And, yes, very much in
> the "budding sexuality" way. Hell, we even see
> her coming to grips with it via interactions with
> other characters.

At a certain point it becomes an issue of whether you can separate sexuality/sensuality/romance from human existence at all. Almost all male action heroes are sexualized to an extent as well, even if it's a character like the lead from Hitman whose theme in his interactions with women is his front of resistance against being attracted to them. If Hanna's mixed feelings about kissing boys is sexualization of the character, then I think we're grasping for an unreachable ideal here. It's the complete opposite of the spectrum from Power Girl or something.

> > Yeah, but it's hard enough to find GUYS doing
> > that for a lead action role. Everyone is hot
> > in movies.
>
> Yes and no. 99% of the female lead roles are
> HAWT. But the male leads have a huge amount of
> wiggle room. Benecio del Toro, Vin Diesel, Javier
> Bardem, Sam Jackson, Robin Williams, and numerous
> others have what might be called "unconventional"
> sex appeal.

Maybe I don't know how women think, but I always thought del Toro, Diesel and Bardem fell within the spectrum of "conventionally handsome". If there's a greater latitude, it's granted to almost all men in mass culture, not just to movie heroes.

> > I think you have to distinguish one film and
> > character from another.
>
> The character of Salt was as subtle as the Black
> Widow in Iron Man 2. I seem to remember an
> underwear scene, too. But I'm willing to admit it
> might have just been in my imagination.

Haha, that's interesting. I wonder, if the movie had been made with Tom Cruise, as originally planned, would he be running around in jockey shorts, strangling guys with his legs? I'd pay to see that - talk about breaking the action-hero mold!

-Paul Segal

"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
asterphage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [www.harkavagrant.com]
>
> This is sort of relevant.

Glorious.


asterphage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If Hanna's mixed feelings about kissing boys
> is sexualization of the character, then I think
> we're grasping for an unreachable ideal here.

I meant the way her preternatural seductiveness was an essential part of her character. Everyone in the film is practically taken with her the moment they meet her. It's so overwhelming that we're even served up lesbian overtones.

Put another way, if they character wouldn't work with an ugly, or even average, looking actor then it's being excessively sexualized. It's all the difference between Enid and Rebecca in Ghost World and Angelina Jolie as Grendel's mother.


> Maybe I don't know how women think, but I always
> thought del Toro, Diesel and Bardem fell within
> the spectrum of "conventionally handsome". If
> there's a greater latitude, it's granted to almost
> all men in mass culture, not just to movie
> heroes.

My barometer of male attractiveness isn't women, but gay men. The most beautiful women will fuck and marry the most hideous men without compunction. Gay men tend to have much higher standards for relative physical sexuality, and I have yet to meet one in a relationship with someone significantly less attractive. (Though I leave open the possibility that this occurs.) So...

A gay friend once explained it to me like this. If you have Javier Bardem act opposite Josh Brolin, they're both gritty, hard-bitten action types that exude testosterone without an iota of fuckability; all you want to do is see them kill each other like rabid animals. If you place them opposite Julia Roberts, they suddenly become dashing, handsome men that ooze fuckability without an ounce of threatening masculinity - like some softcore Teenbeat centerfold. But they both still have faces like worn-out baseball gloves.

His point was this - male leads are sexualized according to the script.

To which I would add that male leads are hard-bodied according to the latent desire of heterosexual audiences to see them as dangerous instead of sexy. Comparatively, female leads are sexualized according to their bodies first and their aggressiveness second.


> Haha, that's interesting. I wonder, if the movie
> had been made with Tom Cruise, as originally
> planned, would he be running around in jockey
> shorts, strangling guys with his legs?

Like Risky Business? Ha. Actually, I thought Knight and Day was a reasonably good (unintentional?) parody of the action movie genre. And Cruise had some bikini time in that one.
Gcrush Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My barometer of male attractiveness isn't women,
> but gay men.

Gay men do have the most discriminating taste. Several summers back I decided to let my hair grow out some, and my best friend's gay roommate said behind my back, "Who does he think he is, carrying on with that goofy, 80s, imitation-David Hasselhoff 'do." This comment, when recalled, still cuts me to the quick, especially when it was painfully obvious that I was going for the Asian Rick Springfield look.

Then again, my friend did once walk in on him dildoing a random stranger he met off of Craigslist.

So maybe discriminating taste is not the best phrase.
gingaio Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So maybe discriminating taste is not the best
> phrase.

I think it still fits. Remember, discriminating taste has noting to do with prudent recreation. I think.

Your haircut story reminds me of the cattle call scene in the otherwise forgettable Finishing the Game. You coulda been famous(er)!

Randomly thinking about strong, desexualized female leads that don't simply trade their skirts for machine-guns... Would you accept Mia Wasikowska's portrayal of Alice in the awful Tim Burton adaptation of "Wonderland"?
Gcrush Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> gingaio Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So maybe discriminating taste is not the best
> > phrase.
>
> I think it still fits. Remember, discriminating
> taste has noting to do with prudent recreation. I
> think.
>
I think for me the pertinent phrase would be "off of Craigslist." They could have been having it out with all sorts of machinery. I just think Craigslist is dirty.

>it occurred to me that the first Resident Evil did have a relatively uncharged
>female lead...

I don't know, man, she does spend the opening act in a not-subtle slinky red dress, and ends up partially naked with her titties hanging out.

>Anyway, how about Ripley from the Alien(s) movies?

I was thinking about her, too. She's definitely sexualized in the first film (the stripped-down underwear scene at the end, as Ben said). In the second film, though, she sort of fits the bill, but not really because she's an interesting character. Otherwise, I'd lump Balsa in there with her.

What I mean is it occurred to me toward the end of posting yesterday that what Paul was really asking for was a female equivalent to to the one-note male action hero archetype--an underdeveloped female action character figure who could be appreciated on the basis of being an action badass alone (without being pretty or sexual or whatever).

That archetype doesn't really exist yet in our culture. But if we were to have a Predators sequel fronted by a decidedly tough woman who would not be mistaken for a beauty, I'd go with Cyborg. She'd be female Ah-nold easy:





Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2011 01:16PM by gingaio.
Attachments:
open | download - CyborgSantos.jpg (102.9 KB)
gingaio Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think for me the pertinent phrase would be
> "random guy off of Craigslist." They could have
> been having it out with all sorts of machinery. I
> just think Craigslist is dirty.

Yeah, it's C-List is dirty-dirty. My point was just that I'm sure the random stranger was at least as relatively attractive as the dood plunging him with the dildo. Or vice versa, as the case may have been.


> >it occurred to me that the first Resident Evil
> did have a relatively uncharged
> >female lead...
>
> I don't know, man, she does spend the opening act
> in a not-subtle slinky red dress, and ends up
> partially naked with her titties hanging out.

No, not Jovovich. I was thinking of Michelle Rodriguez.


> What I mean is it occurred to me toward the end of
> posting yesterday that what Paul was really asking
> for was a female equivalent to to the one-note
> male action hero archetype--an underdeveloped
> female action character figure who could be
> appreciated on the basis of being an action badass
> alone (without being pretty or sexual or
> whatever).

I was going to reach for Angela Bassett's character in Strange Days, but then I remembered Grace Jones. She had a pretty good run of badass characters who, while thinly clad, were definitely more intimidating than sexy. She was the type who would strip down to make you deliberately uncomfortable rather than aroused. But, that type of character was never given a good lead. Shame.

Still, what do you think about Burton's Alice? Not played as sexy, not played as masculine-ly aggressive, not played as nurturing, but still exerted willfulness and self-determination...
not really. shinkis vary greatly in design and style. some a tacticool like waffebunny and some are stylish like benio

yeah there's some stinkers like the fucking squirrel girl but hey no line is perfect
??

Yeah, dude, seeing a (pre)teen girlie in other types of armor, besides robot/mecha ones, doesn't really change the issue that much.
i think you meant to post that other stuff in the 2d complex thread mr. gingaoi
VF5SS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i think you meant to post that other stuff in the
> 2d complex thread mr. gingaoi

I think I was responding to what you wrote in this thread:

> hey now. busou shinki is just good wholesome mecha
> musume. if the designer of the ZZ Gundam can make
> a living off of that, who are you to argue?

That's why I mentioned Gundam ZZ in my response.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2011 06:42PM by gingaio.
oh. well we were talking about lolis in mecha in the other thread. mecha musume is different.
I see a definite difference between what Veef posted and what Vinnie posted...very different, stylistically. Neither being terribly offensive but neither looking terribly interesting or appealing to me, either.

So....get off my lawn.

---------------------------------
[pgaijin.blogspot.com]
Well, the appeal of the Shinkis Vince posted is that they're wearing the Vic Viper from the Gradius games as armor. If you're not into Gradius, they're nothing special - just vaguely similar to the generic mecha-musume of, for instance, Triggerheart Exelica.

-Paul Segal

"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
>Hey, VZ, what do you think of Balsa?

I haven't seen much Moribito.

Puella Magi Madoka Magica is my type of action girl.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I asked if I have "Time For L-Gaim" but I got "No Reply From The Wind".



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2011 08:54PM by Vincent Z..
Vincent Z. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >Hey, VZ, what do you think of Balsa?
>
> I haven't seen much Moribito.
>
> Puella Magi Madoka Magica is my type of action
> girl.

That's shocking.

;)

I miss the days when we had grown-ass Thunderfurry Cheetah-Women to lust after. Sure, it was borderline bestiality, but hey.
why even ask him that question?

all he does is filter out what he doesn't recognize and repeat his own world view



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2011 09:05PM by VF5SS.
VF5SS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> why even ask him that question?
>
To prove a point?
I think a comparison between Ben's linked pic:



And the BS figures is in order. In the above pic, the point of the juxtaposition between T.N.A. and M.O.G.U.E.R.A. is titillation. There's no subtext. It's just that a lot of things get more interesting when you think about boobies on them. Easy.

But the BS line has this weird slash-fic subtext going on.




It's like slapping tits on a Gundam and saying, "See, it's not really about the tits - it's about the Minovsky Particles and the development of the RX-78 propulsion system." But, clearly, it's still a Gundam with tits. Or, in the case of the BS figures, underage undercarriages.

I'm not saying that you can't have aggressive female types. Like the threatening Waffle Bunny. Or Burger Pussy. Or whatever. But when there's:

A) A conspicuous absence of males along with:

B) A weird costume arrangement that emphasizes sexuality as opposed to de-emphasizing it (or even emphasizing a more practical, gender neutral alternative aesthetic like aerodynamics or shrapnel resistance)...

You can't make a convincing argument that the tits ain't about the tits.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2011 09:08PM by Gcrush.
Attachments:
open | download - asuka1.jpg (71.5 KB)
It's not about tits anyway, because they look like children ;)

Introducing Prometheus Rising Studio.
[prometheusrising.net]
I make 3D printed mecha action figures.
Prometheum5 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's not about tits anyway, because they look like
> children ;)


Yeah, see above. I was momentarily distracted by the sweet, sweet treads on that M.O.G.U.E.R.A.
Also, it's one thing to want to slap pornography on your jet aeroplane and another thing completely to want to slap an aeoplane on your pornography.

And it really, really takes it to an uncomfortable level when the porno has pubescent dimensions. Can't they at least merge the planes with some 34DDDs?
Hey, Mr. Crush, would you mind buying me a Burger Pussy for my birfday, or a Gundam Rx-105 Chicken Fried Cooter?
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