Anime Decade: From Japan Cool to Cooling Off

Posted by MattAlt 
chunkypuff31 Wrote:
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> Populuarity doesn't always mean quality, Vinnie.

True, I understand.

Still, not like I can win this argument.
Why did you START this argument? How is the original article, an overview of the very real problems that have arisen for the anime industry in the last ten years, somehow antagonistical to your beliefs?

-Paul Segal

"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
Because this is Vinnie's time..the age of lolicon! Stop trying to take that away from him and let him enjoy it in peace! New and improved....9 out of 10 otaku agree...it's legit!

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[pgaijin.blogspot.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2010 03:02PM by hillsy.
Vincent Z. Wrote:
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>
> >If you're a fan of anime of ANY genre, the fact
> that its creators are disappearing >at an alarming
> rate should bother you more than whether the world
> validates your >particular personal tastes.
>
> I guess.

Jeez, man. I guess if all you are is a nostalgia junkie, then you probably won't be bothered when the industry just dries up and dies, since you'll have all your old school stuff.

Still, the fact is that good stuff is still being produced, but we're definitely NOT in any kind of golden age right now.

More serious than thou
Mind if I post this? The article itself isn't NSFW but the website usually is so take discretion.

[www.sankakucomplex.com]

Whether you like like or dislike modern anime, it's clear that things do need to change for the medium to continue.

My theory as why anime DVD's are SO expensive there is that they're seen as premium good which when bought make the owner feel good they've got something worth more than it should be (ala why Gucchi bags continue to sell).

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I asked if I have "Time For L-Gaim" but I got "No Reply From The Wind".
MattAlt (Admin)
My theory as why anime DVD's are SO expensive there is that they're seen as premium good

They're expensive because DVDs are the pretty much only way most Japanese anime studios have to recoup their expenses, particularly in your favorite genre. Eighty percent of a sponsor's budget goes to paying for airtime. The rest is divvied up by the production committee. Studios get a flat stipend that doesn't even cover the cost of making each episode, so they have to try and make up the difference with overpriced DVDs.

But it looks like even that meager revenue stream is drying up now. For those who don't trust Vince enough to click that link:

"With the news that announced anime for spring 2010 total only 25, down from an incredible peak of 60 or more in the heady spring of 2006, many cannot help but conclude that the anime bubble has finally burst.

Having approximately 25 titles announced so far (with at most a further 5-10 unannounced titles thought possible), the spring 2010 season is dwarfed by the output of previous years in the same season, which exceeded 60 shows by some counts, and represents the most precipitous decline yet.

With the bulk of recent titles made up by the products of the so-called “moe boom,” most observers seem to consider the collapse to have been caused by a surge of nondescript or outright dubious titles flooding the market.

Recent years have also seen the worst excesses of the anime industry reach absurd proportions, with the Endless Eight fiasco a case in point.

Sentiment increasingly seems to view this not as a debilitating crash but instead as a much needed return to normalcy..."
>Having approximately 25 titles announced so far (with at most a further 5-10 >unannounced titles thought possible), the spring 2010 season is dwarfed by the >output of previous years in the same season, which exceeded 60 shows by some >counts, and represents the most precipitous decline yet.

Yeah. Seems like the studios make half a dozen shows a year with the hopes that one or two would be hits. Sometimes it pays off (pretty much anything Kyoto Animation has made prints money) but for others it doomed them (Gonzo's overly flashy CG shows with bad premises).

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I asked if I have "Time For L-Gaim" but I got "No Reply From The Wind".
Sanjeev (Admin)
The US comics industry had a similar crash in the early-mid 90's. It got better. I'm sure animation isn't dead; count me part of the "much needed return to normalcy" camp.
Sanjeev Wrote:
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> The US comics industry had a similar crash in the
> early-mid 90's. It got better. I'm sure animation
> isn't dead; count me part of the "much needed
> return to normalcy" camp.


The comic crash was also due to speculation and buying as investments... the production boom came as a result of the massive buying increase, mostly by people that weren't even reading them, after the shitshow that was Death of Superman. Noone's buying anime DVDs as speculation :P

Introducing Prometheus Rising Studio.
[prometheusrising.net]
I make 3D printed mecha action figures.
Sanjeev (Admin)
True...good point.

Still, I see both cases as instances of low creativity and high profit taking. I think one could make a case for MOST art forms going through a similar phase. I mean, isn't designer vinyl beginning to enter something similar now?

In most of these cases, the medium survives, deflated but healthy again (hopefully).
mcfitch (Admin)
No, the 90s comics thing was all Rob Liefield's fault.
-Mason

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthewalt "I actually kinda LIKE that approach! You know: let's make a TOY. Remember those? Products designed to be played with without breaking? DO YOU REMEMBER, LOVE?!"
I'd hazard to guess that American distribution companies buying up licenses and eventually going under were akin to the 90's comic speculators. Weren't there even a few series that never got made or went straight to DVD because of US backers not being able to come through?
Sanjeev (Admin)
mcfitch Wrote:
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> No, the 90s comics thing was all Rob Liefield's
> fault.
> -Mason


Well, the '00's anime thing was all Vincent Z's fault.
Well let me ask you guys something. Do you buy ANY anime DVDs at all? What about stuff like Golion, Tekkaman Blade or the upcoming release of Dairugger XV?

>Well, the '00's anime thing was all Vincent Z's fault.

The funny thing is up until I say around 2005 I wasn't even into the modern shows. I was buying DVDs yes but of things like 80's OVA (I still do that but I've pretty much got what I can, especially with CPM's death last year). I wasn't really digging the stuff being shown on CN in the early 90's (watching Gundam Wing was an exercise of frustrating boredom). As I've explained, stuff like Azumanga Daioh, Ichigo Mashimaro and of course Lucky Star got me hooked on the modern anime aesthetics.

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I asked if I have "Time For L-Gaim" but I got "No Reply From The Wind".
Vincent Z. Wrote:
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> Well let me ask you guys something. Do you buy ANY
> anime DVDs at all?

No. I own VOTOMS and MOSPEADA because I lurve those shows and that's it. If there was any other domestic release anime that I wanted to watch, I'd rent it. If it wasn't available through a domestic release, I'd download a torrent.

I watched some of the subbed Golion and it was fun, but I couldn't imagine watching 50 episodes of that, much less owning it.
I own the VOTOMS series, the last dubbed Macross boxed set, and a couple of Gundam movies... as well as the really shitty Patlabor I and II movies. That's basically it... I dled FMA, Evangelion, Elfen Lied, most of the Gundam shows, and any other shit like that that I come across. I wouldn't have a problem with buying more of it if it was available and not laughably priced, but at the same time, it's loads more convenient to have them as digital copies. At the same time, I don't yet own a DVD copy of Transformers the movie, or the cartoon series, or even other stuff that I love like Gundam 08th.

Introducing Prometheus Rising Studio.
[prometheusrising.net]
I make 3D printed mecha action figures.
>Well let me ask you guys something. Do you buy ANY anime DVDs at all? What about >stuff like Golion, Tekkaman Blade or the upcoming release of Dairugger XV?


Yes, yes, and yes. Your point?

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[pgaijin.blogspot.com]
Personally, I usually stick to downloading torrents of currently out of release fansubbed stuff, whether old or new. Ideon, for example. The only point for me to own a DVD is if it's got an English dub on it so my family can watch too. My wife and I will watch with English subs, but the kids are too small for that.

More serious than thou
I've bought some modern series in the past like Last Exile, Rahxephon and the Ghost in the Shell series but for the most part, I rent when available. But ones I do buy "religiously" are the Miyazaki films and for mostly nostalgic and "hey, I can't believe they're releasing these Stateside" 70's classics like Gatchaman, Golion and eventually Dairugger.
most of these shows weren't meant for dvd
Sanjeev (Admin)
Prometheum5 Wrote:
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> ...the really shitty Patlabor I and II
> movies.

I thought both of those movies were solid.

So...what the fuck are we talking about here?
Patlabor 1 and especially 2 are both quite good, if not necessarily extensive with the mecha action...

Yeah, what are we talking about again? Anime that we like?
Sanjeev Wrote:
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> Prometheum5 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ...the really shitty Patlabor I and II
> > movies.
>
> I thought both of those movies were solid.
>
> So...what the fuck are we talking about here?


Oh no, don't get me wrong, the movies are PHENOMENAL... the quality of the DVDs is lackluster... they're the Manga(?) releases. I fucking loooove both Patlabor I and II.

Introducing Prometheus Rising Studio.
[prometheusrising.net]
I make 3D printed mecha action figures.
>most of these shows weren't meant for dvd

Newer stuff or older?

---------------------------------
[pgaijin.blogspot.com]
>Oh no, don't get me wrong, the movies are PHENOMENAL... the quality of the DVDs is >lackluster... they're the Manga(?) releases. I fucking loooove both Patlabor I and >II.

Which were then rereleased by the short lived (for good reason) Bandai Visual.

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I asked if I have "Time For L-Gaim" but I got "No Reply From The Wind".
hillsy Wrote:
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> Newer stuff or older?

just in general.

as much as i enjoy watching these shows, i'm not sure i feel the need to clog my shelves with the scores of DVDs required to contain Hokuto no Ken. plus a lot of things are just vehicles for merchandise.
Back to what y'all are talking about: Anime is cooling off because it's main medium is no longer mis-translated VHS tapes!

That's why, yes, skip the DVDs, and buy up all the close out/going out o' buisness sales of ratty, worn, VHS tapes as investments. For $1 each, the common fools are oblivious to the solid GOLD under their noses. We're gonna be rich I tell ya', RICH!


I've never understood why anime DVDs were so cheap in the US, actually. Here in Europe they are quite expensive (around 20 Euro per 4 or 5 episodes), except for the cheaper budget boxsets (and even those can be pricy) by budget editors. The markets likely are similar in size, and surely the different language subtitles can't make so much of a difference?
I prefer the more expensive DVDs because they are qualitatively better - I've never had a problem with Beez's (Bandai Entertainment Europe) DVDs, but some of the budget sets don't work properly on non-Pioneer DVD players...

--
SilhouetteFormula.Net
>I've never understood why anime DVDs were so cheap in the US,

Because they have to price it at what regular movies and TV series collections are here. People prefer to have the whole thing or at least good portion of the show for a good price rather than having to wait for each volume where you pay $25 for 4-5 episodes at a time.

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I asked if I have "Time For L-Gaim" but I got "No Reply From The Wind".
>plus a lot of things are just vehicles for merchandise.

True, but I don't know as though I was under the impression that it was otherwise. I don't see it any of it as fine art or a great masterpiece...just mindless fun. That's the nice thing about the Go-Lion, I assume Dairugger, and these Toku sets that were released...they just don't take up very much room. They're inexpensive, too.

---------------------------------
[pgaijin.blogspot.com]
Sanjeev (Admin)
Vincent Z. Wrote:
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> Well let me ask you guys something. Do you buy ANY
> anime DVDs at all? What about stuff like Golion,
> Tekkaman Blade or the upcoming release of
> Dairugger XV?

Okay, so really getting back to the topic (I'm looking at you, Jon!)...what did this question have to do with anything?
Big Wars... now that's a great title.

"There's no Bigfoot in The Awakening." -James Bickert
>Okay, so really getting back to the topic (I'm looking at you, Jon!)...what did >this question have to do with anything?

Because I wanted to see if people like to put their money where there mouth is. Basically, supporting releases of older mecha titles.

>Big Wars

That movie was kinda a disappointment. The only note worthy thing was that the mecha designs were by Koh Yokoyama. I do have it on DVD ($5 at NYAF where CPM was trying to get rid their stock).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2010 01:48PM by Vincent Z..
Noncon 2010, at Vassar College, (historically girl's school) in NY.
[noncon.vassar.edu]

See, girlies are still liking the Anime and gaming stuffs in US. The goils seem to be a big part of the organizing force behind many US anime conventions. Oh well.
Come on over to see the Anime "Girls From Poughkeepsie" Feb 19-21!
Sanjeev (Admin)
Vincent Z. Wrote:
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> Because I wanted to see if people like to put
> their money where there mouth is. Basically,
> supporting releases of older mecha titles.

I had a vague feeling that's what you were getting at.

So...you mean to imply that a small community of English-speaking collectors of vintage Japanese robot and monster toys buying commercial US DVD releases of obsure Japanese cartoons tantamount to putting their money where their mouth is?

Fine, but what the hell does that mean in context of the deflating anime production industry in Japan?
>Fine, but what the hell does that mean in context of the deflating anime production >industry in Japan?

Because I'm just not seeing the all the problems that Matt Alt stated in his original article when shows like K-On and Bakemonogatari have been some of the highest selling anime EVER. Although I guess the problem is that the money that those shows makes only goes to the upper level executives and not the grunt animators who have to live of cup ramen.

And that's were I get to my point that maybe to me, because many see the fact that robot shows aren't the indicative thing that they want to find something to blame, which goes to moe and fanservice heavy shows.

And besides, Votoms is getting some new OVA episodes so Roger has something to look forward too and I am curious to check out Gundam Unicorn.

Here's a question. During Japan's economic boom period of the 80's, did those that were in the anime industry get more money for their work or was it the same low pay that they have today? Was it the because the economy was SO good back then that animators were able to self indulge and create their own projects (many, MANY anime especially OVAs were like that).
Vincent Z. Wrote:
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> And besides, Votoms is getting some new OVA
> episodes so Roger has something to look forward
> too and I am curious to check out Gundam Unicorn.

I am looking forward to them, but nobody is probably going to release them domestically. And I don't think my purchase of DVDs from a 25 year old show matter that much when it comes to current anime production.

> Here's a question. During Japan's economic boom
> period of the 80's, did those that were in the
> anime industry get more money for their work or
> was it the same low pay that they have today? Was
> it the because the economy was SO good back then
> that animators were able to self indulge and
> create their own projects (many, MANY anime
> especially OVAs were like that).

Probably. If you haven't read about the bubble already, edumacate yourself:

[en.wikipedia.org]

Also, I recommend this documentary which is a 100% legitimate record of historical fact:

[www.imdb.com]
MattAlt (Admin)
>>Because I'm just not seeing the all the problems that Matt Alt stated in his original article

Perhaps this is because you live in the United States, not in the country where all of this is taking place.

But you don't have to take my word for it. Take the Harvard Business School's. Or anonymous comments from industry insiders. Or JETRO, the Japan Fair Trade Commission, or METI's.

The original topic of my article, as has been explained to you several times by multiple people already, isn't moé. It isn't about you, or your private hobbies. If people derive harmless pleasure from watching shows featuring little girls frolicking around, more power to them. The issues we're discussing here run a lot deeper than any specific content. They are structural. And they aren't showing any signs of getting better.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2010 07:27PM by MattAlt.
MattAlt Wrote:
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> The original topic of my article, as has been
> explained to you several times by multiple people
> already, isn't moé.

Right. If anything, people on this BBS are the ones who cite moe as a reason for why they don't have an interest in modern anime themselves, and that phenomenon tends to infuse itself into these discussions about 'the biz' around here.
Matt, if you don't mind the personal question, have you felt this directly in your own workload? As I understand it, anime is not your primary focus, and it seems you and the missus are plenty diversified, but, just curious.

Glad for the article posted, for the sake of general discussion, but couldn't help thinking of it's direct importance to you over that-a-way.
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