Anime authenticity armageddon (formerly the "Eureka 7: the movie" thread)
Posted by asterphage
| September 25, 2009 03:12PM |
So, I don't know if anyone here is a Eureka 7 fan, or cares about it whatsoever, but I went to see the one-night-only theatrical screening of the English dub of the movie last night, and HOLY SHIT THAT WAS TERRIBLE.
From "Maybe you really are the chosen one," a line spoken in literally the first scene, its fate was sealed. There are dozens of other lines like that, most of which I can't recall exactly, but it's trite and clunky throughout.
All kinds of fan-pleasing little touches (right down to Hap trying to conduct a conversation while on the toilet, which was not nearly as amusing as it was in the TV series) did not make up for writer-director Tomoki Kyoda fusing the characters and visual elements onto a sickeningly generic sci-fantasy plot where a pair of teenagers initiating a magical event are the key to save the world from a war with aliens. Kyoda directed the TV series, but he didn't write it, and in the movie script he also utterly mangles the trippy pseudomysticism Dai Sato managed to float in the series. Kyoda takes plot elements founded in the academic analysis of myth and abandons those underpinnings, giving us a near-future world where a segment of the scientific and military establishment inexplicably believes in a Peter Pan legend which prophesies that the two magical teenagers will take us to Neverland. I am not exaggerating; the phrases "stardust" and "Neverland" are used throughout, along with a couple of references to "Peter and Wendy", and "never growing up" vaguely ties in to some of the science fiction conceits of the story.
My favorite terrible line was "If we don't reenact our myth right now, we're all going to die!"
Crispin Freeman got to do that gem, though the whole cast admirably overacted the mess of naked cliche and typical animu bullshit they were given.
After the movie ended, they showed a dub production documentary intercut with a director interview - this was pretty entertaining, rivaling the movie itself.
The English voice actors and dub production staff are all charismatic and engaging, and I doubt most of the movie's flaws were their fault - it was so pervasively poorly written that the damage couldn't have been done in translation. We even see the English voice director, Tony Oliver, reviewing the raw timed translation and playing back lines of Japanese dialogue for the proper emotional emphasis. In the end, the dub was hilarious through no fault of its own. Some of this dialogue is just too ridiculous when performed by a decent voice actor giving it their all.
The interview with Tomoki Kyoda was pretty vacuous. He wanted to make a movie that's entertaining to people who haven't seen the TV series. He did not, as I recall, express his desire to make a movie that's smart or original.
The interviews with the dub cast were actually a lot of fun. Crispin Freeman's favorite thing about his character, Holland, is that he's actually in a stable, mature relationship, which is a rarity in anime characters, and not so normal in mass entertainment in general. Renton's voice, Johnny Yong Bosch, hosts the interview segments, and is generally amusing. There's a bit where he and Kari Wahlgren, Anemone's voice, realize that "Anemone" sounds like the "Mah Na Mah Na" song. There were some pretty fantastic dubbing outtakes, etc, etc.
It was a nice bit of added value, but I still rather regret paying $13.50 for this movie (NYC movie ticket prices plus a service charge for online ordering) - however, I noticed that in one of Kyoda's interview segments, the director mentioned that he wants the viewers to feel like they got their 1500-1800 yen worth from the movie... so I guess it could be worse. 1800 yen is more than $20!
I feel like I should at least mention the animation. It was largely unimpressive - not poor, in that it was up to the high standards of the TV series, but not displaying the excellence I expect from an animated movie. There were a few aerial battle scenes that rivaled the standout moments from the series, but there were many scenes that were recycled or not-too-substantially redrawn, and a LOT of scenes clearly composed in a mostly static manner to allow for lengthy dialogue.
When I originally wrote part of this post on my phone last night after the screening, I was standing next to two obnoxious teenage girls
cosplaying Eureka and Anemone, who I was seated near in the movie. That doesn't really have anything to do with anything else, and is probably an exceptional circumstance given that this particular screening was held mere blocks away from the Javits Center in Manhattan, where the New York Anime Fest convention is about to start, but... there you have it.
-Paul Segal
"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2011 10:45PM by asterphage.
From "Maybe you really are the chosen one," a line spoken in literally the first scene, its fate was sealed. There are dozens of other lines like that, most of which I can't recall exactly, but it's trite and clunky throughout.
All kinds of fan-pleasing little touches (right down to Hap trying to conduct a conversation while on the toilet, which was not nearly as amusing as it was in the TV series) did not make up for writer-director Tomoki Kyoda fusing the characters and visual elements onto a sickeningly generic sci-fantasy plot where a pair of teenagers initiating a magical event are the key to save the world from a war with aliens. Kyoda directed the TV series, but he didn't write it, and in the movie script he also utterly mangles the trippy pseudomysticism Dai Sato managed to float in the series. Kyoda takes plot elements founded in the academic analysis of myth and abandons those underpinnings, giving us a near-future world where a segment of the scientific and military establishment inexplicably believes in a Peter Pan legend which prophesies that the two magical teenagers will take us to Neverland. I am not exaggerating; the phrases "stardust" and "Neverland" are used throughout, along with a couple of references to "Peter and Wendy", and "never growing up" vaguely ties in to some of the science fiction conceits of the story.
My favorite terrible line was "If we don't reenact our myth right now, we're all going to die!"
Crispin Freeman got to do that gem, though the whole cast admirably overacted the mess of naked cliche and typical animu bullshit they were given.
After the movie ended, they showed a dub production documentary intercut with a director interview - this was pretty entertaining, rivaling the movie itself.
The English voice actors and dub production staff are all charismatic and engaging, and I doubt most of the movie's flaws were their fault - it was so pervasively poorly written that the damage couldn't have been done in translation. We even see the English voice director, Tony Oliver, reviewing the raw timed translation and playing back lines of Japanese dialogue for the proper emotional emphasis. In the end, the dub was hilarious through no fault of its own. Some of this dialogue is just too ridiculous when performed by a decent voice actor giving it their all.
The interview with Tomoki Kyoda was pretty vacuous. He wanted to make a movie that's entertaining to people who haven't seen the TV series. He did not, as I recall, express his desire to make a movie that's smart or original.
The interviews with the dub cast were actually a lot of fun. Crispin Freeman's favorite thing about his character, Holland, is that he's actually in a stable, mature relationship, which is a rarity in anime characters, and not so normal in mass entertainment in general. Renton's voice, Johnny Yong Bosch, hosts the interview segments, and is generally amusing. There's a bit where he and Kari Wahlgren, Anemone's voice, realize that "Anemone" sounds like the "Mah Na Mah Na" song. There were some pretty fantastic dubbing outtakes, etc, etc.
It was a nice bit of added value, but I still rather regret paying $13.50 for this movie (NYC movie ticket prices plus a service charge for online ordering) - however, I noticed that in one of Kyoda's interview segments, the director mentioned that he wants the viewers to feel like they got their 1500-1800 yen worth from the movie... so I guess it could be worse. 1800 yen is more than $20!
I feel like I should at least mention the animation. It was largely unimpressive - not poor, in that it was up to the high standards of the TV series, but not displaying the excellence I expect from an animated movie. There were a few aerial battle scenes that rivaled the standout moments from the series, but there were many scenes that were recycled or not-too-substantially redrawn, and a LOT of scenes clearly composed in a mostly static manner to allow for lengthy dialogue.
When I originally wrote part of this post on my phone last night after the screening, I was standing next to two obnoxious teenage girls
cosplaying Eureka and Anemone, who I was seated near in the movie. That doesn't really have anything to do with anything else, and is probably an exceptional circumstance given that this particular screening was held mere blocks away from the Javits Center in Manhattan, where the New York Anime Fest convention is about to start, but... there you have it.
-Paul Segal
"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2011 10:45PM by asterphage.
| September 25, 2009 03:40PM |
The last anime I saw on the screen was Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust. It was better than it deserved to be, but even then it was pushing the cliches a but much. There was a point when it seemed like anime would deliver an experience you couldn't get elsewhere. But with the advent of the digital revolution and the inbred stagnation of the industry, it just doesn't anymore.
But that's not unique to anime. Almost all commercially driven artistic industries are like that. Just collect the money at the door and then give the audience a safe variation on something with which they're already familiar...
But that's not unique to anime. Almost all commercially driven artistic industries are like that. Just collect the money at the door and then give the audience a safe variation on something with which they're already familiar...
| September 25, 2009 03:49PM |
I think the next decent anime to come along will be whatever Shinichiro Watanabe decides to do. Even Moribito, which started well, drowns in flat, exposition-laden episodes (directed by Kenji Kamiyama, whose Ghost in the Shell TV series was pretty stellar).
Eureka 7...I had high hopes for it after the first few TV episodes (the references to American pop/punk counterculture, I thought would lead somewhere, but the show turned into an angsty tween romance, which, given the intended audience, makes sense. But it's hard for me to stomach at my age).
Out of curiosity, I went to see the showing last night. I walked out after about twenty minutes.
Eureka 7...I had high hopes for it after the first few TV episodes (the references to American pop/punk counterculture, I thought would lead somewhere, but the show turned into an angsty tween romance, which, given the intended audience, makes sense. But it's hard for me to stomach at my age).
Out of curiosity, I went to see the showing last night. I walked out after about twenty minutes.
| September 25, 2009 03:54PM |
| September 25, 2009 04:25PM |
Did you finish the Eureka 7 TV series? I always felt the science fiction aspects of it held together in the end, and bore out the significance attached to various mystery items early on.
The Eureka/Renton romance does get cloying at times, but often the TV series treated us as much to details of Holland and Talho's relationship, and his attempt to be a father figure to Renton. This whole side of the series (and most things involving the internal dynamics of the Gekko's crew, rebels though they may be) reflects back on Mobile Suit Gundam in many aspects, and I appreciated it more for that.
-Paul Segal
"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
The Eureka/Renton romance does get cloying at times, but often the TV series treated us as much to details of Holland and Talho's relationship, and his attempt to be a father figure to Renton. This whole side of the series (and most things involving the internal dynamics of the Gekko's crew, rebels though they may be) reflects back on Mobile Suit Gundam in many aspects, and I appreciated it more for that.
-Paul Segal
"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
| September 25, 2009 04:36PM |
A couple of random notes on the movie:
While the fairy-tale bullshit is playing itself out, the main faction of the United Federation government is planning to use an orbital superweapon to destroy the "Eizo" aliens' primary growth site.
When this is fired, the impact will fill the Earth's atmosphere with dust, and the high-ranking UF officials and other selected individuals will escape on a colonization ship...
named the "Megaroad".
I think I was the only one in the theater who laughed at that.
Also, the big black thing equipped onto Holland's silver Terminus type B303 "Devilfish" mech in this image:
[www.recognizer.net]
is referred to in the film as a "Super Pack".
-Paul Segal
"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
While the fairy-tale bullshit is playing itself out, the main faction of the United Federation government is planning to use an orbital superweapon to destroy the "Eizo" aliens' primary growth site.
When this is fired, the impact will fill the Earth's atmosphere with dust, and the high-ranking UF officials and other selected individuals will escape on a colonization ship...
named the "Megaroad".
I think I was the only one in the theater who laughed at that.
Also, the big black thing equipped onto Holland's silver Terminus type B303 "Devilfish" mech in this image:
[www.recognizer.net]
is referred to in the film as a "Super Pack".
-Paul Segal
"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
| September 25, 2009 05:16PM |
asterphage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also, the big black thing equipped onto Holland's
> silver Terminus type B303 "Devilfish" mech in this
> image:
> [www.recognizer.net].
> php?pos=-1071
> is referred to in the film as a "Super Pack".
Ah, I knew I'd miss out on some nice mecha porn. Despite the surfing robots thing being really stupid, I like the Devilfish design.
But yeah, I watched the whole series, and it's not a matter of the plot holding together or not for me, it's that everything's handled in a heavy-handed, yet superficial and cliched way that's a little above the level of a teen audience and way below that of an adult one. Oh, Holland likes to beat up Renton because he's immature! Oh, Talho gets pregnant and after a new haircut she's a mature woman! Oh, we should treat the planet well because otherwise it'll eat us (and as strange as this last one sounds, the whole mother earth/gaia thing has been played out in anime--it needs to stop).
I think what would have been interesting is, since the series already references the Golden Bough and mythmaking (Joseph Campbell, the hero's journey, etc.), if it in some way challenges or brings a new twist to the whole chosen one storyline, which this series only replicates in a particularly sappy way, replete with puppy love and Greenpeace mumbo jumbo.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also, the big black thing equipped onto Holland's
> silver Terminus type B303 "Devilfish" mech in this
> image:
> [www.recognizer.net].
> php?pos=-1071
> is referred to in the film as a "Super Pack".
Ah, I knew I'd miss out on some nice mecha porn. Despite the surfing robots thing being really stupid, I like the Devilfish design.
But yeah, I watched the whole series, and it's not a matter of the plot holding together or not for me, it's that everything's handled in a heavy-handed, yet superficial and cliched way that's a little above the level of a teen audience and way below that of an adult one. Oh, Holland likes to beat up Renton because he's immature! Oh, Talho gets pregnant and after a new haircut she's a mature woman! Oh, we should treat the planet well because otherwise it'll eat us (and as strange as this last one sounds, the whole mother earth/gaia thing has been played out in anime--it needs to stop).
I think what would have been interesting is, since the series already references the Golden Bough and mythmaking (Joseph Campbell, the hero's journey, etc.), if it in some way challenges or brings a new twist to the whole chosen one storyline, which this series only replicates in a particularly sappy way, replete with puppy love and Greenpeace mumbo jumbo.
| September 25, 2009 05:37PM |
gingaio Wrote:
>
> Ah, I knew I'd miss out on some nice mecha porn.
Check out those air brakes!!
> But yeah, I watched the whole series, and it's not
> a matter of the plot holding together or not for
> me, it's that everything's handled in a
> heavy-handed, yet superficial and cliched way
> that's a little above the level of a teen audience
> and way below that of an adult one. Oh, Holland
> likes to beat up Renton because he's immature! Oh,
> Talho gets pregnant and after a new haircut she's
> a mature woman!
Okay, I can't even bring up the spirit to argue with you, because you played the haircut card and it's impossible to disagree with :3
That is one of my least favorite things in anime and similar stories and I see it EVERYWHERE nowadays. The first time I can think of that it annoyed me was in Final Fantasy IX, and the most recent - well, Bones did it AGAIN in Bounen no Xamd.
It's like "Hey, what can we do with (FEMALE CHARACTER) that we didn't do already? New outfit? Hissy fit? OH, I KNOW! We'll have her cut her hair! CHARACTER: DEVELOPED!!!"
> Oh, we should treat the planet
> well because otherwise it'll eat us (and as
> strange as this last one sounds, the whole mother
> earth/gaia thing has been played out in anime--it
> needs to stop).
Yeah, that was done pretty definitively 25 years ago with Nausicaa, and it definitely got tiresome by the time Takahashi did it in Blue Gender. Though I liked the 80s remake of Casshan, with its marauding, murderous, environmentalist robot collective.
I appreciated Eureka's twist, though - the idea that the government's millennia-old fear and Dewey's contemporary hatred of the Scab Coral was based on an essential misunderstanding, the failure to study it closely enough to realize that it would sustain Earth's environment even as it encapsulated the entire planet. It became more about the human reactions to the alien other than about the actual nature of the ecosystem.
> I think what would have been interesting is, since
> the series already references the Golden Bough and
> mythmaking (Joseph Campbell, the hero's journey,
> etc.), if it in some way challenges or brings a
> new twist to the whole chosen one storyline,
Yeah- that didn't apply too well to Renton's own journey.
I think the myth angle was meant to apply more to Dewey's own mindset - while Holland is a modern guy, living out here with the rest of us in the real world, Dewey still lives in the neo-primitive world they grew up in, where everything can only be solved with sacrifice and murder.
-Paul Segal
"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
>
> Ah, I knew I'd miss out on some nice mecha porn.
Check out those air brakes!!
> But yeah, I watched the whole series, and it's not
> a matter of the plot holding together or not for
> me, it's that everything's handled in a
> heavy-handed, yet superficial and cliched way
> that's a little above the level of a teen audience
> and way below that of an adult one. Oh, Holland
> likes to beat up Renton because he's immature! Oh,
> Talho gets pregnant and after a new haircut she's
> a mature woman!
Okay, I can't even bring up the spirit to argue with you, because you played the haircut card and it's impossible to disagree with :3
That is one of my least favorite things in anime and similar stories and I see it EVERYWHERE nowadays. The first time I can think of that it annoyed me was in Final Fantasy IX, and the most recent - well, Bones did it AGAIN in Bounen no Xamd.
It's like "Hey, what can we do with (FEMALE CHARACTER) that we didn't do already? New outfit? Hissy fit? OH, I KNOW! We'll have her cut her hair! CHARACTER: DEVELOPED!!!"
> Oh, we should treat the planet
> well because otherwise it'll eat us (and as
> strange as this last one sounds, the whole mother
> earth/gaia thing has been played out in anime--it
> needs to stop).
Yeah, that was done pretty definitively 25 years ago with Nausicaa, and it definitely got tiresome by the time Takahashi did it in Blue Gender. Though I liked the 80s remake of Casshan, with its marauding, murderous, environmentalist robot collective.
I appreciated Eureka's twist, though - the idea that the government's millennia-old fear and Dewey's contemporary hatred of the Scab Coral was based on an essential misunderstanding, the failure to study it closely enough to realize that it would sustain Earth's environment even as it encapsulated the entire planet. It became more about the human reactions to the alien other than about the actual nature of the ecosystem.
> I think what would have been interesting is, since
> the series already references the Golden Bough and
> mythmaking (Joseph Campbell, the hero's journey,
> etc.), if it in some way challenges or brings a
> new twist to the whole chosen one storyline,
Yeah- that didn't apply too well to Renton's own journey.
I think the myth angle was meant to apply more to Dewey's own mindset - while Holland is a modern guy, living out here with the rest of us in the real world, Dewey still lives in the neo-primitive world they grew up in, where everything can only be solved with sacrifice and murder.
-Paul Segal
"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
|
Anonymous User
|
September 25, 2009 05:49PM |
| September 25, 2009 06:00PM |
asterphage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah, that was done pretty definitively 25 years
> ago with Nausicaa, and it definitely got tiresome
> by the time Takahashi did it in Blue Gender.
> Though I liked the 80s remake of Casshan, with its
> marauding, murderous, environmentalist robot
> collective.
>
You ever see the live action Casshan? Felt like I got hit in the head with a sledgehammer.
>
> I appreciated Eureka's twist, though - the idea
> that the government's millennia-old fear and
> Dewey's contemporary hatred of the Scab Coral was
> based on an essential misunderstanding, the
> failure to study it closely enough to realize that
> it would sustain Earth's environment even as it
> encapsulated the entire planet. It became more
> about the human reactions to the alien other than
> about the actual nature of the ecosystem.
>
Didn't the classic 80s flick Enemy Mine cover this, though? :)
On the one hand, yes, the Scab Coral is an alien, and you could make the argument that it's about xenophobia too. On the other hand, of all the things this alien could have been, it's a coral, one that is struggling to share the same planet with people, and by emphasizing this mutual interdependence, the story is heavily allegorical w/r/t the environment (especially given that the characters themselves are immersed in reading about myth and allegory).
I mean, why are the people surfing in the sky? Why are there fish in the sky? It's like the planet is a giant fishbowl, or a giant reef, is the visual metaphor.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah, that was done pretty definitively 25 years
> ago with Nausicaa, and it definitely got tiresome
> by the time Takahashi did it in Blue Gender.
> Though I liked the 80s remake of Casshan, with its
> marauding, murderous, environmentalist robot
> collective.
>
You ever see the live action Casshan? Felt like I got hit in the head with a sledgehammer.
>
> I appreciated Eureka's twist, though - the idea
> that the government's millennia-old fear and
> Dewey's contemporary hatred of the Scab Coral was
> based on an essential misunderstanding, the
> failure to study it closely enough to realize that
> it would sustain Earth's environment even as it
> encapsulated the entire planet. It became more
> about the human reactions to the alien other than
> about the actual nature of the ecosystem.
>
Didn't the classic 80s flick Enemy Mine cover this, though? :)
On the one hand, yes, the Scab Coral is an alien, and you could make the argument that it's about xenophobia too. On the other hand, of all the things this alien could have been, it's a coral, one that is struggling to share the same planet with people, and by emphasizing this mutual interdependence, the story is heavily allegorical w/r/t the environment (especially given that the characters themselves are immersed in reading about myth and allegory).
I mean, why are the people surfing in the sky? Why are there fish in the sky? It's like the planet is a giant fishbowl, or a giant reef, is the visual metaphor.
| September 25, 2009 06:25PM |
You make a good point about the sky fish and so on turning the whole Earth into a metaphor for our sickening oceans. I always figured that the sky-surfing had a twofold origin - it came from Dai Sato's hippie/raver influence, all that 20th century rock music stuff, bringing in the surfer culture - and it fit what the studio and Bandai wanted to do, working with Kawamori to provide a brand new angle on flying action robots, really just for the sake of the lavishly animated aerial action. However, thinking about it, I seem to recall that some of the references Sato inserted into the series, or some of his explication of them in interviews, did specifically deal with the connection of surfing with environmentalism.
Still, the revelation of the preserved Earth, that not only the beings the U.F. Forces were fighting were the same ones that drove humanity from Earth, but that they had never destroyed our home in the first place, was a fresh enough angle, from a science fiction perspective, that I really enjoyed it.
A hell of a lot better than if they'd led us to believe this took place on a future or alternate-universe Earth, or on a planet in a universe with no connection to our nonfictional world, and then discovering that it was a colony planet. That's definitely another one for the list of "things I never need to see in any story, especially not in anime, ever again".
-Paul Segal
"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
Still, the revelation of the preserved Earth, that not only the beings the U.F. Forces were fighting were the same ones that drove humanity from Earth, but that they had never destroyed our home in the first place, was a fresh enough angle, from a science fiction perspective, that I really enjoyed it.
A hell of a lot better than if they'd led us to believe this took place on a future or alternate-universe Earth, or on a planet in a universe with no connection to our nonfictional world, and then discovering that it was a colony planet. That's definitely another one for the list of "things I never need to see in any story, especially not in anime, ever again".
-Paul Segal
"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
| September 25, 2009 06:53PM |
asterphage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> However, thinking about it, I seem to
> recall that some of the references Sato inserted
> into the series, or some of his explication of
> them in interviews, did specifically deal with the
> connection of surfing with environmentalism.
>
Yeah, there's a long historical association between surfers and environmental causes that Sato was tapping into (the Surfrider Foundation, etc.).
And his being influenced by the counterculture (which includes the skater culture, the rave music, etc.), that's what I felt should have been emphasized and developed.
Gcrush wrote:
>The last anime I saw on the screen was Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust. It was
>better than it deserved to be, but even then it was pushing the cliches a but
>much.
My thoughts exactly, doppelganger. Back in grad school, I saw this with a bunch of classmates at the arthouse theater by the university. The prevailing notion going in was that the movie would be shamelessly gory, raunchy, cliched, and brainless.
It was all that and more. For some reason that still baffles me, my classmates and I really enjoyed it. I even bought the DVD.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2009 06:55PM by gingaio.
-------------------------------------------------------
> However, thinking about it, I seem to
> recall that some of the references Sato inserted
> into the series, or some of his explication of
> them in interviews, did specifically deal with the
> connection of surfing with environmentalism.
>
Yeah, there's a long historical association between surfers and environmental causes that Sato was tapping into (the Surfrider Foundation, etc.).
And his being influenced by the counterculture (which includes the skater culture, the rave music, etc.), that's what I felt should have been emphasized and developed.
Gcrush wrote:
>The last anime I saw on the screen was Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust. It was
>better than it deserved to be, but even then it was pushing the cliches a but
>much.
My thoughts exactly, doppelganger. Back in grad school, I saw this with a bunch of classmates at the arthouse theater by the university. The prevailing notion going in was that the movie would be shamelessly gory, raunchy, cliched, and brainless.
It was all that and more. For some reason that still baffles me, my classmates and I really enjoyed it. I even bought the DVD.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2009 06:55PM by gingaio.
| September 25, 2009 06:57PM |
| September 25, 2009 07:49PM |
gingaio Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My thoughts exactly, doppelganger. Back in grad
> school, I saw this with a bunch of classmates at
> the arthouse theater by the university. The
> prevailing notion going in was that the movie
> would be shamelessly gory, raunchy, cliched, and
> brainless.
>
> It was all that and more. For some reason that
> still baffles me, my classmates and I really
> enjoyed it. I even bought the DVD.
I'm going to fucking AMEN myself into a coma, but YES - AMEN! There really was something else there, something that elevated it just that last necessary notch. It might have something to do with the production quality - it really was as polished as it could be, and the story was compelling enough, tightly paced, and well scripted. And the sound! Damn, the sound work as amazing. I can't remember a more recent anime film that comes as close to greatness in my mind.
The recent Evangelion remakes come close, but they're really just doing right what the television series bungled up so many years ago - so's I don't count them. Maybe Jin-Roh? I loved the animation in it. Finally, realistic looking characters! The score was good, too. But the editing and scripting made the plot incoherent. And, ultimately, it didn't do anything a live action film couldn't have done equally well. So why animate it?
To reach-around for Eureka 7, I caught a couple of episodes on television a few years ago on vacation. It did nothing for me and in the span of those 45 minutes or so I thought, "What? Again? Ack." I'm at the point now where every time I see a 'tween protagonist it takes a conscious effort not to vomit. A 'tween protagonist crushing on someone is guaranteed to have me hugging the toilet all night.
-------------------------------------------------------
> My thoughts exactly, doppelganger. Back in grad
> school, I saw this with a bunch of classmates at
> the arthouse theater by the university. The
> prevailing notion going in was that the movie
> would be shamelessly gory, raunchy, cliched, and
> brainless.
>
> It was all that and more. For some reason that
> still baffles me, my classmates and I really
> enjoyed it. I even bought the DVD.
I'm going to fucking AMEN myself into a coma, but YES - AMEN! There really was something else there, something that elevated it just that last necessary notch. It might have something to do with the production quality - it really was as polished as it could be, and the story was compelling enough, tightly paced, and well scripted. And the sound! Damn, the sound work as amazing. I can't remember a more recent anime film that comes as close to greatness in my mind.
The recent Evangelion remakes come close, but they're really just doing right what the television series bungled up so many years ago - so's I don't count them. Maybe Jin-Roh? I loved the animation in it. Finally, realistic looking characters! The score was good, too. But the editing and scripting made the plot incoherent. And, ultimately, it didn't do anything a live action film couldn't have done equally well. So why animate it?
To reach-around for Eureka 7, I caught a couple of episodes on television a few years ago on vacation. It did nothing for me and in the span of those 45 minutes or so I thought, "What? Again? Ack." I'm at the point now where every time I see a 'tween protagonist it takes a conscious effort not to vomit. A 'tween protagonist crushing on someone is guaranteed to have me hugging the toilet all night.
| September 25, 2009 08:08PM |
Gcrush Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm going to fucking AMEN myself into a coma, but
> YES - AMEN! There really was something else
> there, something that elevated it just that last
> necessary notch. It might have something to do
> with the production quality - it really was as
> polished as it could be, and the story was
> compelling enough, tightly paced, and well
> scripted. And the sound! Damn, the sound work as
> amazing. I can't remember a more recent anime
> film that comes as close to greatness in my mind.
>
Yeah, to hear that movie in the theater was really a treat. It's kind of like what PT Anderson does with sound (There Will Be Blood, or even Punch-Drunk Love) where it builds and builds in your veins, and suddenly, it'll shut off and you think--Shit, what an effect...I didn't even notice.
I totally agree about the pace/structure of the story, which is fast and tight and exhilarating. There is absolutely nothing new in this story, but it's just executed with this incredible gloss and beauty, just wonderful to look at.
I mean, shit, those technical things work so well even the final shot of the girl looking up at the rocket and screaming, "Fly away! Fly away!" was forgivable. That's genius right there.
>
> The recent Evangelion remakes come close, but
>
I really need to see these remakes.
>
> they're really just doing right what the
> television series bungled up so many years ago -
> so's I don't count them. Maybe Jin-Roh? I loved
> the animation in it. Finally, realistic looking
> characters! The score was good, too. But the
> editing and scripting made the plot incoherent.
>
In that sense, it's the essential Mamoru Oshii movie. The one film of his that's been successful, as far as combining a satisfying story and visuals, is still the first Patlabor flick. There's nothing else he's done that I care about enough to remember clearly.
>
> I'm at the point now where every
> time I see a 'tween protagonist it takes a
> conscious effort not to vomit. A 'tween
> protagonist crushing on someone is guaranteed to
> have me hugging the toilet all night.
>
We just have to remind ourselves, most anime ain't for us anymore.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2009 08:10PM by gingaio.
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm going to fucking AMEN myself into a coma, but
> YES - AMEN! There really was something else
> there, something that elevated it just that last
> necessary notch. It might have something to do
> with the production quality - it really was as
> polished as it could be, and the story was
> compelling enough, tightly paced, and well
> scripted. And the sound! Damn, the sound work as
> amazing. I can't remember a more recent anime
> film that comes as close to greatness in my mind.
>
Yeah, to hear that movie in the theater was really a treat. It's kind of like what PT Anderson does with sound (There Will Be Blood, or even Punch-Drunk Love) where it builds and builds in your veins, and suddenly, it'll shut off and you think--Shit, what an effect...I didn't even notice.
I totally agree about the pace/structure of the story, which is fast and tight and exhilarating. There is absolutely nothing new in this story, but it's just executed with this incredible gloss and beauty, just wonderful to look at.
I mean, shit, those technical things work so well even the final shot of the girl looking up at the rocket and screaming, "Fly away! Fly away!" was forgivable. That's genius right there.
>
> The recent Evangelion remakes come close, but
>
I really need to see these remakes.
>
> they're really just doing right what the
> television series bungled up so many years ago -
> so's I don't count them. Maybe Jin-Roh? I loved
> the animation in it. Finally, realistic looking
> characters! The score was good, too. But the
> editing and scripting made the plot incoherent.
>
In that sense, it's the essential Mamoru Oshii movie. The one film of his that's been successful, as far as combining a satisfying story and visuals, is still the first Patlabor flick. There's nothing else he's done that I care about enough to remember clearly.
>
> I'm at the point now where every
> time I see a 'tween protagonist it takes a
> conscious effort not to vomit. A 'tween
> protagonist crushing on someone is guaranteed to
> have me hugging the toilet all night.
>
We just have to remind ourselves, most anime ain't for us anymore.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2009 08:10PM by gingaio.
| September 25, 2009 11:30PM |
asterphage Wrote:
> I think I'm going to go see Ponyo tonight, to
> cleanse my palate.
And I'm back. Favorite line:
"Koichi is my dad."
"Is he an evil wizard!?"
"No! What's YOUR dad like?"
(Her dad isn't an evil wizard either, just your average magical overprotective father)
-Paul Segal
"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
> I think I'm going to go see Ponyo tonight, to
> cleanse my palate.
And I'm back. Favorite line:
"Koichi is my dad."
"Is he an evil wizard!?"
"No! What's YOUR dad like?"
(Her dad isn't an evil wizard either, just your average magical overprotective father)
-Paul Segal
"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
| September 26, 2009 12:41AM |
| September 26, 2009 01:19AM |
Kwesi K. Wrote:
> Satoshi Kon
He is easily my favorite anime filmmaker, ever since 'Millennium Actress', and all he's done since then has justified that feeling to me.
It's funny how 'Paranoia Agent' and 'Paprika' started off addressing the subconscious mind, suppressed desires, dreams and so on, but sooner or later they all turn out to be about storytelling, the creative process, narrative art, or movies and anime themselves. 'Perfect Blue' and 'Actress' went in the opposite direction, from their explicit starting points in the subject matter of filmmaking. For all the similarities, though, I never felt Kon was repeating himself.
About Girl who Leapt Through Time- I still haven't seen it. That's Makoto Shinkai, right? Man, those guys are real auteurs.
One more thing about Ponyo-
Daddies, don't let your babies grow up to be fish-girls. Or rather, let them grow up and stop being fish-girls. Or something.
-Paul Segal
"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
> Satoshi Kon
He is easily my favorite anime filmmaker, ever since 'Millennium Actress', and all he's done since then has justified that feeling to me.
It's funny how 'Paranoia Agent' and 'Paprika' started off addressing the subconscious mind, suppressed desires, dreams and so on, but sooner or later they all turn out to be about storytelling, the creative process, narrative art, or movies and anime themselves. 'Perfect Blue' and 'Actress' went in the opposite direction, from their explicit starting points in the subject matter of filmmaking. For all the similarities, though, I never felt Kon was repeating himself.
About Girl who Leapt Through Time- I still haven't seen it. That's Makoto Shinkai, right? Man, those guys are real auteurs.
One more thing about Ponyo-
Daddies, don't let your babies grow up to be fish-girls. Or rather, let them grow up and stop being fish-girls. Or something.
-Paul Segal
"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
| September 26, 2009 01:38AM |
Yeah, Kon always comes with the A game. Even if I think his endings are a bit atypical (Millinium Actress excluded) he does so much more with the medium and story telling, I'm not mad.
I just remembered another feature that never gets a mention and is still rather creative and a good story to boot, Catnapped!. It's a very basic but well told children's story but visually it's like Peter Max with depth perception. Takashi Nakamura directed it and uses his unique visual sense to make it a lot more interesting than it should be.
I just remembered another feature that never gets a mention and is still rather creative and a good story to boot, Catnapped!. It's a very basic but well told children's story but visually it's like Peter Max with depth perception. Takashi Nakamura directed it and uses his unique visual sense to make it a lot more interesting than it should be.
| September 26, 2009 12:37PM |
| September 28, 2009 04:28PM |
gingaio Wrote:
> Even Moribito, which started well, drowns in flat,
> exposition-laden episodes (directed by Kenji
> Kamiyama, whose Ghost in the Shell TV series was
> pretty stellar).
I'm watching the Adult Swim dub run of Moribito, and I still enjoy the tone and slow pace of the show, but I really lost my original enthusiasm for it when it became clear that it actually IS all about magical water spirits and stuff.
Up through the episode where the main astrologer character (the one who was the older prince's tutor, I can't keep track of most of the character names) goes out into the countryside, consulting peasant farmers about the nature and presence of drought signs, I was really excited about the show - because it appeared to be about superstition vs. realism, the destructive futility of the mystical belief that would lead the royal household to slaughter one of its own children with the faith that it would prevent a drought.
Some time after all that was established, though, they brought the actual spirits and magical events back into the storyline in a central role, and all those previous elements that I'd taken for major themes turned out to just be plot twists on the long road of decoding the show's own internal depiction of Japanese animism.
That episode where the old rival of Balsa's (credited as Greg Howard, but I'm pretty sure his English voice was actually Beau Billingslea under yet another alias) comes back to torment her was pretty fantastic, though. It seemed like they tried to pack as much animation as possible into the brief fight scenes they had, and both the fighting itself and the facial closeups in those scenes were intense. The tactics he uses to shake her before their fight (polluting wells along her path, interrupting her sleep from a distance) were interesting, on a level that is unusual for this series, as was the intimation that Balsa used to operate like that in the earlier days of her mercenary career.
-Paul Segal
"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
> Even Moribito, which started well, drowns in flat,
> exposition-laden episodes (directed by Kenji
> Kamiyama, whose Ghost in the Shell TV series was
> pretty stellar).
I'm watching the Adult Swim dub run of Moribito, and I still enjoy the tone and slow pace of the show, but I really lost my original enthusiasm for it when it became clear that it actually IS all about magical water spirits and stuff.
Up through the episode where the main astrologer character (the one who was the older prince's tutor, I can't keep track of most of the character names) goes out into the countryside, consulting peasant farmers about the nature and presence of drought signs, I was really excited about the show - because it appeared to be about superstition vs. realism, the destructive futility of the mystical belief that would lead the royal household to slaughter one of its own children with the faith that it would prevent a drought.
Some time after all that was established, though, they brought the actual spirits and magical events back into the storyline in a central role, and all those previous elements that I'd taken for major themes turned out to just be plot twists on the long road of decoding the show's own internal depiction of Japanese animism.
That episode where the old rival of Balsa's (credited as Greg Howard, but I'm pretty sure his English voice was actually Beau Billingslea under yet another alias) comes back to torment her was pretty fantastic, though. It seemed like they tried to pack as much animation as possible into the brief fight scenes they had, and both the fighting itself and the facial closeups in those scenes were intense. The tactics he uses to shake her before their fight (polluting wells along her path, interrupting her sleep from a distance) were interesting, on a level that is unusual for this series, as was the intimation that Balsa used to operate like that in the earlier days of her mercenary career.
-Paul Segal
"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
| September 30, 2009 01:24PM |
| September 30, 2009 03:16PM |
Gcrush Wrote:
> I hated Paprika. Just where the hell was all that
> supposed to be going?
I thought it was just a simple suspense story - one of the members of the scientific team happens to be out to get the others. Everything else is just a product of the characters' subconscious, because the team happens to be researching electronically-mediated shared lucid dreaming.
-Paul Segal
"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
> I hated Paprika. Just where the hell was all that
> supposed to be going?
I thought it was just a simple suspense story - one of the members of the scientific team happens to be out to get the others. Everything else is just a product of the characters' subconscious, because the team happens to be researching electronically-mediated shared lucid dreaming.
-Paul Segal
"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
| September 30, 2009 04:16PM |
As for Paprika, I try to asses art according to some simple criteria before I go getting all subjective on it.
1. What was the artist intending to do?
2. How well did they accomplish that?
3. Is the work possessed of artistic seriousness?
4. Etc.
You know, all the basic shit that our well-intentioned high school teachers tried to instill in us when we were too preoccupied with sex and robots to listen.
So along those lines, I think the film waffled on the first and second points. Was the director trying to say something about human relationships; the nature of thought, reality, and the subconscious; or simply craft a compelling whodunnit? Any one of those would have been enough, but the film kept getting off track on the other two. Not focused enough. Combine that with the jumpy editing, stilted dialog, and jumbled plot and the whole thing turned into a plate of spaghetti.
And while the animation was good, they really didn't push the envelop with the abstractness of dreams and the subconscious. All the dream sequences were tangible, solid things, made up of parades of stuff. Like a department store came to life. Who really dreams like that? When the children's daytime programming on PBS is more psychedelic than the dream sequences in a film about dreams something is off. That's just not enough to cut it.
Still, it was a serious film full of meritorious potential. Points for that. But points off for not being focused or following through. Be a laser, not a spotlight.
====
All that Aside, Paul - you didn't answer my real question!
WHERE ARE THE WOMEN IN THE ANIME INDUSTRY?!?! WHERE ARE THEY?!?!
1. What was the artist intending to do?
2. How well did they accomplish that?
3. Is the work possessed of artistic seriousness?
4. Etc.
You know, all the basic shit that our well-intentioned high school teachers tried to instill in us when we were too preoccupied with sex and robots to listen.
So along those lines, I think the film waffled on the first and second points. Was the director trying to say something about human relationships; the nature of thought, reality, and the subconscious; or simply craft a compelling whodunnit? Any one of those would have been enough, but the film kept getting off track on the other two. Not focused enough. Combine that with the jumpy editing, stilted dialog, and jumbled plot and the whole thing turned into a plate of spaghetti.
And while the animation was good, they really didn't push the envelop with the abstractness of dreams and the subconscious. All the dream sequences were tangible, solid things, made up of parades of stuff. Like a department store came to life. Who really dreams like that? When the children's daytime programming on PBS is more psychedelic than the dream sequences in a film about dreams something is off. That's just not enough to cut it.
Still, it was a serious film full of meritorious potential. Points for that. But points off for not being focused or following through. Be a laser, not a spotlight.
====
All that Aside, Paul - you didn't answer my real question!
WHERE ARE THE WOMEN IN THE ANIME INDUSTRY?!?! WHERE ARE THEY?!?!
| September 30, 2009 04:42PM |
| September 30, 2009 04:54PM |
According to the "Animation Runner Kuromi" OAV, they're slaving away in low-paying, thankless, menial animation jobs, just like the majority of the men.
It's hard to even think of significant female manga creators. I mean, there are plenty of well-known ones, but like the well-known male manga creators, most of them aren't actually that good when you judge the work within a broader field than popular entertainment.
Hiromu Arakawa (Fullmetal Alchemist) is fantastic, though.
p.s. TAIIIIMU JYAAANIIIIZU
-Paul Segal
"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
It's hard to even think of significant female manga creators. I mean, there are plenty of well-known ones, but like the well-known male manga creators, most of them aren't actually that good when you judge the work within a broader field than popular entertainment.
Hiromu Arakawa (Fullmetal Alchemist) is fantastic, though.
p.s. TAIIIIMU JYAAANIIIIZU
-Paul Segal
"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
| September 30, 2009 08:15PM |
VF5SS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> you think women have any power in japan?
You're kidding, right? There are successful female Japanese artists in many different genres/industries. And there's a difference between a male-dominated industry and an absolutely-no-girls-allowed industry. There isn't a gigantic list of female directors in Hollywood, yet they exist and some have been successful.
But, really, we can't even come up with one female anime director's name? Do we not know of any or do they not exist?
That doesn't exactly boggle the mind, but it should raise some important points. Like, what the fuck does Miyazaki know about what it means to be a young girl coming of age? It's great that he's willing to broach the topic and treat it as interesting, but it's still not exactly coming from an informed perspective.
-------------------------------------------------------
> you think women have any power in japan?
You're kidding, right? There are successful female Japanese artists in many different genres/industries. And there's a difference between a male-dominated industry and an absolutely-no-girls-allowed industry. There isn't a gigantic list of female directors in Hollywood, yet they exist and some have been successful.
But, really, we can't even come up with one female anime director's name? Do we not know of any or do they not exist?
That doesn't exactly boggle the mind, but it should raise some important points. Like, what the fuck does Miyazaki know about what it means to be a young girl coming of age? It's great that he's willing to broach the topic and treat it as interesting, but it's still not exactly coming from an informed perspective.
| September 30, 2009 09:05PM |
| October 01, 2009 05:12AM |
Gcrush Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Like, what
> the fuck does Miyazaki know about what it means to
> be a young girl coming of age? It's great that
> he's willing to broach the topic and treat it as
> interesting, but it's still not exactly coming
> from an informed perspective.
He could have asked his wife, since he's married.
As for terrible anime/manga series made by women, yes, there's a few out there that are terribly mysognistic and awful in every sense of the word (unless you like moe/sick fanservice with young girls). Makes you wonder why the heck they were ever written...and why their creators actually thought they were okay.
asterphage wrote:
> It's hard to even think of significant female manga
> creators. I mean, there are plenty of well-known ones,
> but like the well-known male manga creators, most of
> them aren't actually that good when you judge the work
> within a broader field than popular entertainment.
> Hiromu Arakawa (Fullmetal Alchemist) is fantastic, though.
I'm not sure what you mean by "a broader field than popular entertainment". I guess it's about anime/manga that have a deeper meaning that can also be appreciated outside the mainstream audience?
-------------------------------------------------------
> Like, what
> the fuck does Miyazaki know about what it means to
> be a young girl coming of age? It's great that
> he's willing to broach the topic and treat it as
> interesting, but it's still not exactly coming
> from an informed perspective.
He could have asked his wife, since he's married.
As for terrible anime/manga series made by women, yes, there's a few out there that are terribly mysognistic and awful in every sense of the word (unless you like moe/sick fanservice with young girls). Makes you wonder why the heck they were ever written...and why their creators actually thought they were okay.
asterphage wrote:
> It's hard to even think of significant female manga
> creators. I mean, there are plenty of well-known ones,
> but like the well-known male manga creators, most of
> them aren't actually that good when you judge the work
> within a broader field than popular entertainment.
> Hiromu Arakawa (Fullmetal Alchemist) is fantastic, though.
I'm not sure what you mean by "a broader field than popular entertainment". I guess it's about anime/manga that have a deeper meaning that can also be appreciated outside the mainstream audience?
| October 01, 2009 07:43AM |
| October 01, 2009 03:39PM |
Vincent Z. Wrote:
> K-On was directed by a woman.
Would you consider her a notable anime creator? She's directed a few episodes of other moe series (Clannad, Lucky Star, Haruhi), animated some others (Kanon, Air, more Haruhi), and did background paintings. She may have worked her way up, but it's not exactly a strong body of material.
The woman who adapted the script for K-On, however, there's a real veteran.
Reiko Yoshida
While she does seem to work on a lot of crap (not all of it adaptations, either), there's a lot of impressive work in there too. She wrote "The Cat Returns"! She wrote big chunks of MariMite and Blood+, had a lead role in writing well-regarded series like Scrapped Princess and Jyu-Oh-Sei, and... well, wrote a lot of really bad manga adaptations, and created Tokyo Mew Mew. But I think I can forgive that.
-Paul Segal
"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
> K-On was directed by a woman.
Would you consider her a notable anime creator? She's directed a few episodes of other moe series (Clannad, Lucky Star, Haruhi), animated some others (Kanon, Air, more Haruhi), and did background paintings. She may have worked her way up, but it's not exactly a strong body of material.
The woman who adapted the script for K-On, however, there's a real veteran.
Reiko Yoshida
While she does seem to work on a lot of crap (not all of it adaptations, either), there's a lot of impressive work in there too. She wrote "The Cat Returns"! She wrote big chunks of MariMite and Blood+, had a lead role in writing well-regarded series like Scrapped Princess and Jyu-Oh-Sei, and... well, wrote a lot of really bad manga adaptations, and created Tokyo Mew Mew. But I think I can forgive that.
-Paul Segal
"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
| October 01, 2009 04:38PM |
While I really can't name many female directors, I can name various female character designers (as I'm more interested in character designing than story writing anyways).
Probably one of the most prolific is Akemi Takada. Look at everything she's done.
[www.animenewsnetwork.com]
I also really like the design work of Asako Nishida
[www.animenewsnetwork.com]
--------------------------------------------------------------
I asked if I have "Time For L-Gaim" but I got "No Reply From The Wind".
Probably one of the most prolific is Akemi Takada. Look at everything she's done.
[www.animenewsnetwork.com]
I also really like the design work of Asako Nishida
[www.animenewsnetwork.com]
--------------------------------------------------------------
I asked if I have "Time For L-Gaim" but I got "No Reply From The Wind".
| October 01, 2009 05:01PM |
Vincent Z. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> K-On was directed by a woman.
For fuck's sake, Vince, give her a name! Naoko Yamada, according to the internets. Not that I trust it to be accurate or anything. But there you go.
asterphage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would you consider her a notable anime creator?
> She's directed a few episodes of other moe series
> (Clannad, Lucky Star, Haruhi), animated some
> others (Kanon, Air, more Haruhi), and did
> background paintings. She may have worked her way
> up, but it's not exactly a strong body of
> material.
Strong or not, I'll take it. I wanted to get at least one name out there and we did. That's not exactly great, but it's a start. I'm going to make it a personal mission to work through K-On now.
> Reiko Yoshida
I'll take that, too, because it is an impressive body of work. But scriptwriters still aren't on the same power-level as directors...
-------------------------------------------------------
> K-On was directed by a woman.
For fuck's sake, Vince, give her a name! Naoko Yamada, according to the internets. Not that I trust it to be accurate or anything. But there you go.
asterphage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would you consider her a notable anime creator?
> She's directed a few episodes of other moe series
> (Clannad, Lucky Star, Haruhi), animated some
> others (Kanon, Air, more Haruhi), and did
> background paintings. She may have worked her way
> up, but it's not exactly a strong body of
> material.
Strong or not, I'll take it. I wanted to get at least one name out there and we did. That's not exactly great, but it's a start. I'm going to make it a personal mission to work through K-On now.
> Reiko Yoshida
I'll take that, too, because it is an impressive body of work. But scriptwriters still aren't on the same power-level as directors...
| October 01, 2009 05:15PM |
| October 02, 2009 03:31AM |
Forget that moe crap and try Michiko to Hatchin directed by Sayo Yamamoto with Shinichiro Watanabe on the assist with producing the soundtrack.
It's not an entirely successful show but it's still fascinating, diverse and is more about the relationships of the title characters, and how they resolve their issues as they tear across Brazil on the run from the cops and gangsters.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2009 04:08AM by Kwesi K..
It's not an entirely successful show but it's still fascinating, diverse and is more about the relationships of the title characters, and how they resolve their issues as they tear across Brazil on the run from the cops and gangsters.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2009 04:08AM by Kwesi K..
| October 02, 2009 03:50AM |
>Like, what the fuck does Miyazaki know about what it means to be a young girl
>coming of age? It's great that he's willing to broach the topic and treat it as
>interesting, but it's still not exactly coming from an informed perspective.
Does it matter the director's not a woman if the story's rhetorical effect is successful? If the only gripe is that the director's not a woman?
On political and sociocultural levels, yes. The dearth of female anime directors is problematic and points to the limits of the medium, but on a purely aesthetic level, to assume that Miyazaki can't tell a "believable" or "convincing" story about a young girl coming of age would assume that people can't create convincing stories about things they've never experienced firsthand, which would wipe out the sci-fi/fantasy genres, for one thing.
I mean, Hurt Locker seemed to come from a really informed perspective, but I doubt Kathryn Bigelow ever put on a suit and walked that walk of doom to diffuse an actual bomb. I doubt she's ever put her life in danger in that manner.
Or Kazuo Ishiguro's Never Let Me Go, which is narrated by a woman who flashes back to her boarding school experience. I was never a 12-year-old schoolgirl, but the college girls in the classes in which I taught the book were pretty unanimous in expressing how entirely convincing his fictional voice was. Some of them even assumed the author was female before they saw his photo.
On the other hand, should texts and movies be read and watched completely in a vacuum, without considering the social context? Well, of course not.
Anyway, back to Miyazaki--his stuff's awash in layers of fantasy to begin with, so I think we can cut him some slack in that regard.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2009 03:55AM by gingaio.
>coming of age? It's great that he's willing to broach the topic and treat it as
>interesting, but it's still not exactly coming from an informed perspective.
Does it matter the director's not a woman if the story's rhetorical effect is successful? If the only gripe is that the director's not a woman?
On political and sociocultural levels, yes. The dearth of female anime directors is problematic and points to the limits of the medium, but on a purely aesthetic level, to assume that Miyazaki can't tell a "believable" or "convincing" story about a young girl coming of age would assume that people can't create convincing stories about things they've never experienced firsthand, which would wipe out the sci-fi/fantasy genres, for one thing.
I mean, Hurt Locker seemed to come from a really informed perspective, but I doubt Kathryn Bigelow ever put on a suit and walked that walk of doom to diffuse an actual bomb. I doubt she's ever put her life in danger in that manner.
Or Kazuo Ishiguro's Never Let Me Go, which is narrated by a woman who flashes back to her boarding school experience. I was never a 12-year-old schoolgirl, but the college girls in the classes in which I taught the book were pretty unanimous in expressing how entirely convincing his fictional voice was. Some of them even assumed the author was female before they saw his photo.
On the other hand, should texts and movies be read and watched completely in a vacuum, without considering the social context? Well, of course not.
Anyway, back to Miyazaki--his stuff's awash in layers of fantasy to begin with, so I think we can cut him some slack in that regard.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2009 03:55AM by gingaio.
| October 02, 2009 09:55AM |
Vincent Z. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you hate moe, you'll most definitely hate K-On.
> The main girl is the biggest moeblob ever.
Thanks for the warning, Vince. I'll give the first episode a go and take it from there. Forewarned is four arms.
Kwesi K. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forget that moe crap and try Michiko to Hatchin
> directed by Sayo Yamamoto with Shinichiro Watanabe
> on the assist with producing the soundtrack.
Dood! Thanks for the tip. There's yet another female director we can add to the list!
gingaio Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does it matter the director's not a woman if the
> story's rhetorical effect is successful? If the
> only gripe is that the director's not a woman?
Alright, it's fair to call bullshit on a bullshitter. I didn't exactly disclose my prejudices towards Miyazaki, which to be fair, aren't necessarily his fault. I take issue with the way his work has been received stateside. As in, it's vastly overrated against the background of the genre of animation in general. Having said that...
It doesn't matter if the rhetoric of the film is touching on general issues of "high seriousness". But if the demographics of a character are intrinsic to the story, then yes - it does matter. What would you say about To Kill a Mockingbird if Haper Lee wrote it from the perspective of Tom Robinson instead of Scout Finch? At best it would be inauthentic, at worst it would be disingenuous appropriation - a way of pandering to the audience while misinforming them. "See how progressive I am? I'm pretending to be a minority!"
Most artists would (rightly) get called out on that. Miyazaki hasn't really, to the best of my knowledge. But wait! There's more!
> On political and sociocultural levels, yes.
Agreed.
> The dearth of female anime directors is problematic
> and points to the limits of the medium, but on a
> purely aesthetic level, to assume that Miyazaki
> can't tell a "believable" or "convincing" story
> about a young girl coming of age would assume that
> people can't create convincing stories about
> things they've never experienced firsthand, which
> would wipe out the sci-fi/fantasy genres, for one
> thing.
I disagree. Sci-fi and fantasy are specific sub-genres within fiction. The former is speculative - it is the fiction of what could be; the latter is purely imaginative - it is the fiction of what could never be. The genre of bildungsroman is neither speculative nor impossible, hence the issue of authenticity is central to its effectiveness.
I'm not suggesting that the mandate of "write what you know" should be followed blindly, but judiciously. If the point of a work is to deceive the audience, then playing fast-and-lose with authenticity is perfectly acceptable. But (since I'm picking on Miyazaki) I see no intrinsic justification for the coming-of-age motifs in some of his work; the plot and animation could have moved along just as well without them.
> I mean, Hurt Locker seemed to come from a really
> informed perspective, but I doubt Kathryn Bigelow
> ever put on a suit and walked that walk of doom to
> diffuse an actual bomb. I doubt she's ever put her
> life in danger in that manner.
Unfortunately, I haven't seen it so I can't comment.
> Or Kazuo Ishiguro's Never Let Me Go, which is
> narrated by a woman who flashes back to her
> boarding school experience. I was never a
> 12-year-old schoolgirl, but the college girls in
> the classes in which I taught the book were pretty
> unanimous in expressing how entirely convincing
> his fictional voice was. Some of them even assumed
> the author was female before they saw his photo.
Again, I haven't read it so my response is limited. But I will suggest this point - even for any specific demographic or population the range of experiences is such that while patterns will emerge, no two will ever be identical. This is why dizygotic twins can still have different experiences growing up in the same family. Ishiguro may have been drawing on the larger patterns of youth in a boarding house; or he and the audience might also have similar ideas about "how women are/act/think" that also establish the thread of credibility.
But this illustrates the need to differentiate between authenticity and convincibility. There is an intrinsic emotional resonance that accompanies an authentic work that cannot be replicated by simply convincing an audience. Creating a convincing piece is an intellectual act, one based on arguments, prejudices, and lines of reasoning; but without an authentic emotional subtext as a foundation such a piece is still a kind of deception.
> On the other hand, should texts and movies be read
> and watched completely in a vacuum, without
> considering the social context? Well, of course
> not.
For the sake of being iconoclastic, I'm going to say, "Yes." All meritorious art must be taken in at least twice if we are to really internalize it. The first time should be devoid of context so as to minimize our own predispositions. The second time should include as much about the background as possible so we can evaluate our reactions and orient the experience in the broader scope of the human experience.
> Anyway, back to Miyazaki--his stuff's awash in
> layers of fantasy to begin with, so I think we can
> cut him some slack in that regard.
Yes. Like I said, I was singling him out for his success. Maybe unfairly, but isn't that what success is? The ability of a thing to be singled out? Anyway.
To go back to my basic criteria for evaluating art, we should look at the decision he made to use a young adolescent girl in Spirited Away. It's very much a deliberate casting choice, so why did he make it? It might have just as easily been a boy, unless he is using some gender stereotypes central to the plot. So we should wonder certain things...
Was he reinforcing gender stereotypes?
Was he attempting to give a voice to an underrepresented population?
Did he make the choice intuitively and not give thought to the consequences?
If we follow each of those questions they will take us to some interesting and not unrelated places. And one could make the argument that as a director, he might not have successfully accomplished what he set out to do. It may seem like he was giving special attention to the oft-neglected female experience, but in doing so his lack of authenticity may have done more to convincingly reinforce stereotypes about women. Whoops.
Seewhatimsayin?
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you hate moe, you'll most definitely hate K-On.
> The main girl is the biggest moeblob ever.
Thanks for the warning, Vince. I'll give the first episode a go and take it from there. Forewarned is four arms.
Kwesi K. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forget that moe crap and try Michiko to Hatchin
> directed by Sayo Yamamoto with Shinichiro Watanabe
> on the assist with producing the soundtrack.
Dood! Thanks for the tip. There's yet another female director we can add to the list!
gingaio Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does it matter the director's not a woman if the
> story's rhetorical effect is successful? If the
> only gripe is that the director's not a woman?
Alright, it's fair to call bullshit on a bullshitter. I didn't exactly disclose my prejudices towards Miyazaki, which to be fair, aren't necessarily his fault. I take issue with the way his work has been received stateside. As in, it's vastly overrated against the background of the genre of animation in general. Having said that...
It doesn't matter if the rhetoric of the film is touching on general issues of "high seriousness". But if the demographics of a character are intrinsic to the story, then yes - it does matter. What would you say about To Kill a Mockingbird if Haper Lee wrote it from the perspective of Tom Robinson instead of Scout Finch? At best it would be inauthentic, at worst it would be disingenuous appropriation - a way of pandering to the audience while misinforming them. "See how progressive I am? I'm pretending to be a minority!"
Most artists would (rightly) get called out on that. Miyazaki hasn't really, to the best of my knowledge. But wait! There's more!
> On political and sociocultural levels, yes.
Agreed.
> The dearth of female anime directors is problematic
> and points to the limits of the medium, but on a
> purely aesthetic level, to assume that Miyazaki
> can't tell a "believable" or "convincing" story
> about a young girl coming of age would assume that
> people can't create convincing stories about
> things they've never experienced firsthand, which
> would wipe out the sci-fi/fantasy genres, for one
> thing.
I disagree. Sci-fi and fantasy are specific sub-genres within fiction. The former is speculative - it is the fiction of what could be; the latter is purely imaginative - it is the fiction of what could never be. The genre of bildungsroman is neither speculative nor impossible, hence the issue of authenticity is central to its effectiveness.
I'm not suggesting that the mandate of "write what you know" should be followed blindly, but judiciously. If the point of a work is to deceive the audience, then playing fast-and-lose with authenticity is perfectly acceptable. But (since I'm picking on Miyazaki) I see no intrinsic justification for the coming-of-age motifs in some of his work; the plot and animation could have moved along just as well without them.
> I mean, Hurt Locker seemed to come from a really
> informed perspective, but I doubt Kathryn Bigelow
> ever put on a suit and walked that walk of doom to
> diffuse an actual bomb. I doubt she's ever put her
> life in danger in that manner.
Unfortunately, I haven't seen it so I can't comment.
> Or Kazuo Ishiguro's Never Let Me Go, which is
> narrated by a woman who flashes back to her
> boarding school experience. I was never a
> 12-year-old schoolgirl, but the college girls in
> the classes in which I taught the book were pretty
> unanimous in expressing how entirely convincing
> his fictional voice was. Some of them even assumed
> the author was female before they saw his photo.
Again, I haven't read it so my response is limited. But I will suggest this point - even for any specific demographic or population the range of experiences is such that while patterns will emerge, no two will ever be identical. This is why dizygotic twins can still have different experiences growing up in the same family. Ishiguro may have been drawing on the larger patterns of youth in a boarding house; or he and the audience might also have similar ideas about "how women are/act/think" that also establish the thread of credibility.
But this illustrates the need to differentiate between authenticity and convincibility. There is an intrinsic emotional resonance that accompanies an authentic work that cannot be replicated by simply convincing an audience. Creating a convincing piece is an intellectual act, one based on arguments, prejudices, and lines of reasoning; but without an authentic emotional subtext as a foundation such a piece is still a kind of deception.
> On the other hand, should texts and movies be read
> and watched completely in a vacuum, without
> considering the social context? Well, of course
> not.
For the sake of being iconoclastic, I'm going to say, "Yes." All meritorious art must be taken in at least twice if we are to really internalize it. The first time should be devoid of context so as to minimize our own predispositions. The second time should include as much about the background as possible so we can evaluate our reactions and orient the experience in the broader scope of the human experience.
> Anyway, back to Miyazaki--his stuff's awash in
> layers of fantasy to begin with, so I think we can
> cut him some slack in that regard.
Yes. Like I said, I was singling him out for his success. Maybe unfairly, but isn't that what success is? The ability of a thing to be singled out? Anyway.
To go back to my basic criteria for evaluating art, we should look at the decision he made to use a young adolescent girl in Spirited Away. It's very much a deliberate casting choice, so why did he make it? It might have just as easily been a boy, unless he is using some gender stereotypes central to the plot. So we should wonder certain things...
Was he reinforcing gender stereotypes?
Was he attempting to give a voice to an underrepresented population?
Did he make the choice intuitively and not give thought to the consequences?
If we follow each of those questions they will take us to some interesting and not unrelated places. And one could make the argument that as a director, he might not have successfully accomplished what he set out to do. It may seem like he was giving special attention to the oft-neglected female experience, but in doing so his lack of authenticity may have done more to convincingly reinforce stereotypes about women. Whoops.
Seewhatimsayin?
| October 02, 2009 11:44AM |
gingaio Wrote:
>
> Does it matter the director's not a woman if the
> story's rhetorical effect is successful? If the
> only gripe is that the director's not a woman?
But how can we know if it's successful, when WE'RE not women?
(This is a joke. Don't respond to this.)
> I mean, Hurt Locker seemed to come from a really
> informed perspective, but I doubt Kathryn Bigelow
> ever put on a suit and walked that walk of doom to
> diffuse an actual bomb. I doubt she's ever put her
> life in danger in that manner.
This is actually a poor example, because the screenwriter of The Hurt Locker was inspired by his time as an embedded journalist with a bomb disposal unit in Iraq.
-Paul Segal
"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
>
> Does it matter the director's not a woman if the
> story's rhetorical effect is successful? If the
> only gripe is that the director's not a woman?
But how can we know if it's successful, when WE'RE not women?
(This is a joke. Don't respond to this.)
> I mean, Hurt Locker seemed to come from a really
> informed perspective, but I doubt Kathryn Bigelow
> ever put on a suit and walked that walk of doom to
> diffuse an actual bomb. I doubt she's ever put her
> life in danger in that manner.
This is actually a poor example, because the screenwriter of The Hurt Locker was inspired by his time as an embedded journalist with a bomb disposal unit in Iraq.
-Paul Segal
"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
