[BATTLESTAR GALACTICA] The series.

Posted by Roger 
Thanks for the link, Rog. I'm glad Moore made it clear these four really are Cylons. That's more than enough to chew on without wondering the the whole thing was a fake-out.

When you put together the clues that these Cylons seem to fit too early in the timeline (ie, Tigh's age) plus the fact that the other Cylons don't know who they are and their ability to ignore their Cylon heritage and keep acting in the interests of humanity....makes me think these first human models were "flawed" in that they completely adopted a human persona. If you make a mole that's so good it actually joins the opposition, wouldn't you want to keep it a secret? Moore said this bunch was "fundamentally different" from the rest. Maybe the Cylons had too much success with these early models and had to go back and change the recipe to built a flesh-job that only acted like a human rather than actually being one.

Jape

Edit: Whoops. Meant to add that if this is true, it almost makes them a third group of players--not really Cylon and not really human. So they could very well still support humanity as always and not be sleeper agents like Sharon at all. (Of course, the rest of the crew may not buy that.....)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2007 01:43PM by japester.
The prosecution should have known about Caprica 6, because the President cut a deal with her to testify in the trial. Of course, if they put her on the stand, and she told the truth, it would exonerate Baltar. But then it would conflict with "Butterfingers" Gaeta's testimony, and who is the tribunal going to believe?

Was the original death list document ever produced? I figured it would have been left on Colonial One after Baltar abandoned it. I seem to remember that Zarek's "star chamber" group on Galactica had a copy of it, too, and were using it while reviewing Gaeta's case.

There's a whole laundry list of fishy things they could have brought up at the trial, like:

- Baltar's (unwitting) involvement in bringing down the colonial defense network.
- Baltar deliberately fudging the results of Boomer's cylon test.
- Baltar killing Crashdown.
- The nuke that Baltar gave away that blew up Cloud Nine.

Unfortunately, there wouldn't have been much (if any) evidence the prosecution could have produced to back these things up.

Originally the writers' plan was to have Baltar tried for an officially sanctioned massacre of the Sagitaron settlers on New Caprica, and they were setting up pieces of that in various episodes, but eventually they realized it didn't work, so they had to do a lot of rewriting and (in some cases) re-filming scenes to rip this stuff out.

BTW, this episode had a couple of cheats in the "previously on" montage, two brief scenes of Helo on the bridge yapping with Gaeta and Dualla about what they might find when they got to the nebula.
One thing I'd like to know about the show though, where is the Cylon's leadership? The flesh jobs couldn't have been around when they first rebelled. There had to have been Cylons prior to them that were self aware and capable of organizing their rebellion against the humans. So, why haven't they shown up?
Well, since we're quoting our previously selves, here's the one thing I might have almost (maybe) gotten-but-not-really-it-depends"


leMel42 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If they go the easy route, the storm eye is a
> hyperdimensional portal to Earth or something.

> She didn't so much explode, but rather 'went through
> with sparklies' in fine sci fi tradition



But I admit, I really like the idea that she's just in Lee's head.



Music-means-you're-a-Cylon was way too telegraphed. By the end of part 2 of a 2-parter, it just wans't a suprise anymore. I was hoping for a real twist.



I like the final courtroom scene. Nice.



2008 will be a long wait.



So, if the metal Cylons rebelled 40 yarens previous, then the more advanced 'human' Cylons (Tigh) existed *before* that?



I guess Hera and Tyrell's kid will eventually become the Cousin Oliver Star Twins. They should have named them Tia and Tony.



Batlar has written his scripture, is apparently getting set up with a harem of apostolic devotees...now he can become a full-on Rasputin. Awesome! My favorite character takes another great turn!


leMel42
Even more Moore:

[www.tvweek.com]
japester Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for the link, Rog. I'm glad Moore made it
> clear these four really are Cylons. That's more
> than enough to chew on without wondering the the
> whole thing was a fake-out.

Well, shoot. Guess I should've read that article before posting my long rant about why those four aren't Cylons; that'll learn me. As you can probably tell from how hard I was trying to believe that these four weren't Cylons, I'm not at all wild about the idea. But I've argued for trusting Ron Moore before, and he hasn't disappointed in the long run (even if about half of the season 3 eps were mediocre). So, I'll eagerly be back in 2008 for the next (last?) season.

Best,
--Ken-A
leMel42 Wrote:

> Music-means-you're-a-Cylon was way too
> telegraphed. By the end of part 2 of a 2-parter,
> it just wans't a suprise anymore. I was hoping for
> a real twist.

I think you may be alone in those feelings, leMel. ;-)

Ken,
Like the rest of this show, I think they'll use this to simply muddy the waters. I see them using this new breed as yet another angle for discussing what the elements of "being human" are. They've already blurred the line slightly on the career flesh-job Cylons. So now they have Cylons that live their entire lives as humans. I just hope the end of the show isn't some politically correct crap about how everybody and everything is equal and exactly the same "where it counts". Yuck.

Jape
japester Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> leMel42 Wrote:
>
> > Music-means-you're-a-Cylon was way too
> > telegraphed. By the end of part 2 of a
> 2-parter,
> > it just wans't a suprise anymore. I was hoping
> for
> > a real twist.
>
> I think you may be alone in those feelings, leMel.
> ;-)

I agree with LeMel. Shades of "The Prestige" -- I was thinking, "the music can't just mean they're Cylons, it's got to be something new!" But it wasn't. :/

> Ken,
> Like the rest of this show, I think they'll use
> this to simply muddy the waters. I see them using
> this new breed as yet another angle for discussing
> what the elements of "being human" are. They've
> already blurred the line slightly on the career
> flesh-job Cylons. So now they have Cylons that
> live their entire lives as humans. I just hope
> the end of the show isn't some politically correct
> crap about how everybody and everything is equal
> and exactly the same "where it counts". Yuck.

That is a legitimate worry, after the "Helo confronts racism" episode this season. Of course, I liked the theme of that ep (if not its execution) better after the contrast with the later "Apollo takes on the legal system" consequences. But I don't mind them mudding the waters. ;)

A couple more ruminations: perhaps the Final Five Cylons aren't descended from the same group of toasters as the seven we've seen to date (the "they rebelled, they evolved" crowd)? If Cylon/Colonial history is a recursive loop, perhaps the Final Five are somehow surviving Cylons (or gods) from the last loop? Also, if Chief Tyrol is actually a Cylon, then the whole story about his parents being followers of "the five hidden gods" and the out-of-the-blue business of him locating the supernova temple now make a lot more sense.

Best,
--Ken-A
Ken-A Wrote:

> Chief Tyrol is actually a Cylon, then the whole
> story about his parents being followers of "the
> five hidden gods" and the out-of-the-blue business
> of him locating the supernova temple now make a
> lot more sense.


Heh. So he walked into the temple and interrupted himself from appearing to Gaius with the 'final five' by punching him? He almost saw himself! Glowing!

I agree about them being 'different' Cylons, simply in mimicry of Moore's own statements. I like that Moore admits to 'making it up later' and adjusting to the backstory, rather than pretending that it was planned all along.
leMel42 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Heh. So he walked into the temple and interrupted
> himself from appearing to Gaius with the 'final
> five' by punching him? He almost saw himself!

Okay, that is kinda cool to think about. :-)

> I agree about them being 'different' Cylons,
> simply in mimicry of Moore's own statements. I
> like that Moore admits to 'making it up later' and
> adjusting to the backstory, rather than pretending
> that it was planned all along.

So much random stuff happens that it makes that kind of retconning easy. Kind of like folks who "knew" who the final five were because Cylons hook up with other Cylons---except everybody seems to hook up with everybody on this show, making that argument specious.

I was thinking about this a while ago and had a random thought. What if the final five are different in that they are....(drumroll)....half-breeds!!!? What if the first five flesh-jobs renounced the whole Cylon regime and incarnation get-out-of-jail-free as cheapening their humanity, so they defected to the human side and have been breeding with humans (meaning the original final five are dead and these are the next generation or two)? Would explain why the later models are keeping them a secret (to prevent further defections) and why it took so long for this batch to realize who/what they were.

Might also explain why the current flesh-jobs who are defecting somewhat are leaning towards wanting to know about the final five, since those courageous few made the jump towards integrating the species long ago.

Just a thought....

Oh, and I rewatched the scene with Starbuck since the "no static" threw me off, too. Not sure if that is valid, though. When they show her in tight close-up in her cockpit, there's no static. But when they switch back to Apollo while she's talking, there is normal static. It switches back and forth one more time. Kinda sloppy, since it lets the writers pick whichever one is more convenient for the ending they write.

Jape
japester Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh, and I rewatched the scene with Starbuck since
> the "no static" threw me off, too. Not sure if
> that is valid, though. When they show her in
> tight close-up in her cockpit, there's no static.
> But when they switch back to Apollo while she's
> talking, there is normal static. It switches back
> and forth one more time. Kinda sloppy, since it
> lets the writers pick whichever one is more
> convenient for the ending they write.

Hey, I'm often wrong, but never in doubt. :) It also fits with the "is the Cylon Raider really there or not" shots in the ep with Starbuck's "death," as well as Apollo's DRADIS only sometimes registering Starbuck's Viper as an "unknown" contact in the finale.

Best,
--Ken-A

Edit: I am an idiot.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2007 07:47PM by Ken-A.
The whole thing reminds me of this.
Ken-A Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey, I'm often wrong, but never in doubt. :) It
> also fits with the "is the Cylon Raider really
> there or not" shots in the ep with Starbuck's
> "death," as well as Apollo's DRADIS only sometimes
> registering Starbuck's Viper as an "unknown"
> contact in the finale.

No, you are spot-on that it could all be major hints. And the Galactica didn't register her Viper at all, right? Yeah, lots of frayed edges that the writers can pull selectively from. :-)

And I would never call counsel an idiot (in any form that could be quoted back to me as evidence).

Jape
Galactica-related, if only tangentially:

[secret-b.com]

Cylon-style Skullbee figures, in silver soldier and gold commander versions, complete with Galactica-style logo on their backs.
DOES IT HAVE A WAIST JOINT?

[i.toynewsi.com]
That kind of fine engineering is rarely seen outside the realm of cookie jars.
Sanjeev (Admin)
[cgi.ebay.com]

--
Sanjeev

'Us Massholes straight up just don't give a fuck. I still pronounce "Mazinger" as "Tranzor Z".'
-Nekrodave
[news.yahoo.com]

Well, we all saw it coming but last I heard was that they were gonna try for a 5 year run. Either way there's always prequels and side stories, Young Adama Chronicles here we come!
Sanjeev (Admin)
Well...as long as it ends well...NOT like the hacked ending of Farscape...I'll be happy. I guess that's the most important thing.

At first, I thought Sci-Fi Channel was shit-canning the show like it did with Farscape, but this looks more like a move by the producers, which is a totally different thing.

Yes, I'm still bitter over Farscape.

--
Sanjeev

'Us Massholes straight up just don't give a fuck. I still pronounce "Mazinger" as "Tranzor Z".'
-Nekrodave
Sanjeev Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> At first, I thought Sci-Fi Channel was
> shit-canning the show like it did with Farscape,
> but this looks more like a move by the producers,
> which is a totally different thing.

Is it really? Nobody ends a successful show this soon. They must've seen the writing on the wall and made a pre-emptive strike to end it themselves rather than be cancelled (and lose the chance to end the story gracefully).

Although people have argued that the critics loved this show, I think this proves that the whole soap-opera-in-space vibe just didn't click with enough viewers. Bring back the feathered haircuts, space babes, and sense of adventure! LOL

If nothing else, I'm thankful for the new show because it brought us some great new BSG toys.

Jape
Sanjeev (Admin)
Hmmm...suspicious, aren't we? Well, gods bless your soul! ;)

Well, whether ya buy it or not, it still looks like the end will be on better terms than Farscape's. I *STILL* can't believe the unwashed masses favored Star-fucking-gate over Farscape...

No justice in this world, I tell ya!

--
Sanjeev

'Us Massholes straight up just don't give a fuck. I still pronounce "Mazinger" as "Tranzor Z".'
-Nekrodave
I think one factor is that the show is expensive to do, from the effects work to the actors' salaries. A cable channel like Sci-Fi can only afford so much.

I'm glad that they're making this decision with 22 episodes to go instead of 2.
Hopefully it's 22 good episodes, not 20 fillers + EC's ('everything changes').


woo woo... woo woo...
That reminds me. I saw that new commercial where you hear the old Cylon light-eye sound as Adama stands in front of a Cylon suit from the old series, and it gave me a thrill! Until I watched it again and realized the eye wasn't on. If they took a scene where Adama is standing in front of an inert museum piece and added that sound just to fake us out for the commercial, that is one helluva cheap shot. Amateur hour stuff.

Jape
Has anyone been watching the Razor flashbacks on the official web site? I love the return of the "woo-woo" Cylons!
Article on bringing the old Cylons back:

[www.galactica.tv]
This is lengthy, so you may want to print it out and read it on the toilet:

ROGER'S GRAND UNIFIED CYLON THEORY
I dunno Roger. I think Starbuck and Baltar are just too obvious. I'll bet that Number One is President Rosilyn for the main reason that she's intended to truly die, which is probably one of the human experiences the cylons are seeking (the relationship with god). This assumes though, that she doesn't know who she is and for them to truly "get" humanity she must never know who she is..and she cannot be reborn.
I honestly forgot Roslyn when I was trying to figure out who the last cylon was. To be honest, aside from her premonition dreams there really hasn't been anything to show that she could be a cylon. She would also be the only cylon ever shown to get sick (that plague was a special case), but going with your hypothesis, if they designed her to be able to die, I guess that would be expected.
The even bigger question is:
What is it about the new BSG that drives people with the name "Roger" to such ruminations?


Oh, and in case any of you are still collecting the little Titanium ships, the very nifty black/stealth Viper is in stock at Hasbrotoyshop.com for $4.99. I have a couple, and the black painjob works very nicely (the same can't be said for the red and white Mk VII).

Jape
japester Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh, and in case any of you are still collecting
> the little Titanium ships, the very nifty
> black/stealth Viper is in stock at
> Hasbrotoyshop.com for $4.99. I have a couple, and
> the black painjob works very nicely (the same
> can't be said for the red and white Mk VII).


I certainly agree -- the black Mk II is awesome, and the classic color Mk VII has a PAINjob. ;)

Best,
--Ken-A
About sickness and cylons: Anders might be significant because he's the only cylon we've ever seen get sick, long before the plague incident. Didn't Simon say that it was impossible for cylons to get sick?

Being a cylon could also explain Tigh's herculean resistance to alcohol.

I'm told there's a torrent of Razor floating around. I may pull the trigger on it tonight.
Just finished watching Razor. NO SPOILERS...

It's good! If you were watching this chronologically between the episodes where it was supposed to fit in, it would work very well. No loose ends or major retconning that doesn't fit with what we know. It does hint at something for the fourth season with a piece of dialogue, but not with the main plot line.

The credits list a lot of actors that don't appear in the TV cut of it, so I'm assuming that the DVD version will have a lot of extra footage that doesn't air. Also, out of the flashback shorts that have aired, only two of them appear as part of Razor, so keep up with those for extra goodness.

Overall, recommended.
Version 1.1 is up, spread it around:

[www.entertainmentgeekly.com]
Watched Razor again last night. It inspired me to go through the mess in my closet and dig out my Pegasus toy. There is one short 10 second scene in there that will give fans of the original show a real thrill. Can't wait to see the DVD version when it comes out in a couple of weeks.

All seven of the Razor flashbacks are up, definitely check them out:

[www.scifi.com]
So now there's stronger a chance that we may not see the second half of Season 4 of Galactica next year, but this time it's due to the strike, not scheduling:

[www.rondmoore.com]

Razor made up the first two episodes, so if they wrapped 413 that means they produced 11 episodes that Sci-Fi will start airing in April. I wonder if they'll still be picketing by then.
Those classic style cylons looked so fast and brutish. Way scarier than the updated incarnation.
Ha!
RAZOR!
we got to see:
1. the old school gold cylon! in triad pilot formation with two other silver cylons.
2. old school cylons saying "by your command"!
3. old school cylon raiders attacking Pegasus!
4. "I love it when a plan comes together"

I really liked the character of Kendra Shaw. In some ways, its too bad she's not a regular. Very nice the way the movie was essentially written around her.

They've discussed the fact that it was essentially made out of season 4 episode "budget" and is part of the final season. Does anyone know if they will include "Razor" with the inevitable Season 4 set? (similar to the way the original mini was included w/season 1)?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2007 11:37PM by ChrisM.
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