Unicron

Posted by Dominic 
Count me in for one. I'd easily pay $30 for one of these. (Finally got a shipping notice from RobotKingdom, my 2010 Unicron and 2010 Primus are on their way together! Hopefully they're not battling inside the box!)
While at the store this weekend I realized something. Unicron's moon-guy looks like a Bakugan toy. Is that intentional?

Also, I finally managed to get Unicron's leg-pins into the back-holes. (Sounds dirty, right?) Getting them in there was an awful shifting mess, but once they're in, they're in good. So the body part is stable. But the feet/toes stick out funny and throw off the planet ring, and the upper mouth/wings don't align. I guess it's a littler better, but not much...
Sanjeev (Admin)
Gcrush Wrote:
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> While at the store this weekend I realized
> something. Unicron's moon-guy looks like a
> Bakugan toy. Is that intentional?

Nah. Unicron came out in--what?--'02 or '03? Bakugan came out in '07 or something...

But honestly, that makes me wanna start looking into cooler Bakugan designs to act as additional moons! :P


> Also, I finally managed to get Unicron's leg-pins
> into the back-holes. (Sounds dirty, right?)
> Getting them in there was an awful shifting mess,
> but once they're in, they're in good. So the body
> part is stable. But the feet/toes stick out funny
> and throw off the planet ring, and the upper
> mouth/wings don't align. I guess it's a littler
> better, but not much...

For real, man, transform it back and forth a few times. It's made mine MUCH easier to manage, and shit locks together a lot better now. When going from robot to planet, I keep the feet splayed apart a bit (at the ankles), then lock the legs together and swing 'em around to get the leg-pins into the back-holes (hehe). Once that's all tight, then I pop together the orbital ring, line it up between the feet, then press the whole rig together. The last step is to get the planet wings/shells swung into place, lined up with the main horns and the top connection point for the orbital ring. Boom...done...no worries.

Scopedog, great to hear that the robotkingdom mystery has been solved! Two planet-bots in one whack...nice. You better post pics of that Primus. I don't think anyone else on here's getting one (at least, no one I recall spoke up), so it'll be good to get a TBDXer's opinion.

Anyway, I've been a bit busy today, but I got a chance to talk to a local acrylic fabricator in the Boston area. I zapped him drawings of the stand and hopefully, he'll get back to me soon with some idea of 1) whether it's feasible and 2) it's cost. He does CNC cutting, so that means it'll be cut accurately...but I'm hoping that also translates to low cost.

We'll see. I'ma try to keep it under $30 if I can help it...
I'm sort of curious about Primus, but not enough to buy it. I still don't really like how the Cybertron mode is colored in planet mode based on online pictures... maybe it looks better in person?

-Ginrai
Golden Gate Riot on dead trees at: [www.destroyallcomics.com]
Sanjeev Wrote:
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> We'll see. I'ma try to keep it under $30 if I can
> help it...

Can you handle packing and shipping alot of these? I'll bet if you promoted it on tformers, seibertron, and tfw2005 you'd be inundated with orders.
Sanjeev (Admin)
Fuck 'em. I'll make however many I want and sell to whomever I want. Nyah.

Nah, but I'm sure shipping these will be easy--just a padded envelope should do the trick...
Sanjeev Wrote:
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> Fuck 'em. I'll make however many I want and sell
> to whomever I want. Nyah.
>
> Nah, but I'm sure shipping these will be
> easy--just a padded envelope should do the
> trick...

What I was trying to say is that if you promote this to the TF community you could probably sell a shitload and maybe keep the per unit price down. But that all depends on how willing you are to pack and ship a large number of them.

New out-of-box pics of Primus with comparison to the Cybertron version:
[tformers.com]
Wow the blue parts sticking out in planet mode look REALLY BAD. Why don't they match the rest of the planet? This is still not doing much for me.

-Ginrai
Golden Gate Riot on dead trees at: [www.destroyallcomics.com]
While the Cybertron mode looks better with the metallic paint , I prefer the original robot mode colors.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I asked if I have "Time For L-Gaim" but I got "No Reply From The Wind".
Wow, gotta say I'm happy I have the original instead of this.

More serious than thou
Sanjeev Wrote:
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> And to celebrate, I'm posting pics of my stand
> design thus far. :P
>
> [toyboxdx.com]

I like the footprint of the plain, circular base better. But this is still pretty awesome. Dig it!
I received my Unicron and Primus yesterday and had about an hour to fool around with them. Its nice to complete my planetformer collection.

My Unicron has the tooth problem but I like the symmetrical look. His face has scratched paint which is also a problem on the seibertron.com example (does anybody else have scratched face paint?) The cannon is also weak, but after trying it once, I never intend to use it again. I didn't have any problems transforming him and everything holds together tightly. All in all, this is the Unicron "I would have waited an eternity for" and I can't wait to put him on a Sanjeev Unicron stand! :)

Primus is a pleasant surprise. The only reason I didn't buy the original version was because of the colors and I really like the more subdued metallic hues of the 2010 version. It seems like a cool toy overall but overpriced for a recolor. Still, it's nice to have a Cybertron for Unicron to glare at menacingly.





Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2010 09:27PM by Scopedog.
Attachments:
open | download - Transforming Planets.JPG (456 KB)
Sanjeev (Admin)
Love seeing the Vader/Death Star chilling with the other two!

After looking at the new Primus pics, I'd say I prefer the newer one...but not necessarily by a ton. I like the metallic paint on the planet, but it almost seems a little too dark. Cybertron from the animation seemed a bit brighter silver.

If I didn't have either Primus and needed to buy one, I'd probably opt for the new version. Then again...ONLY if they were the same price.

I guess my main beef isn't so much the color scheme, but the overall design. When I think "Cybertron", I'm picturing this. This toy is NOT that image. No weird bites taken out of it or creepy inner glow. Obviously, Unicron's quite a bit different from the animation model, but it's close enough and hits all the main features from the cartoon.

...

Anyway, here's the latest on the stand...

So I talked to a local acrylic fabricator at length about the design. He mostly laughed and said it would cost well into the triple digits! The way he explained it made sense though: see, I'm used to manufacturing things out of amorphous stock material. Like, casting resin--you just mix up the right amount and pour. Or metal casting--melt however much you need and pour. Injection molding...same shit. Whatever.

But with acrylic, you work with stock sheets and CNC your geometry out of it. The more material you hog out, the more is wasted...you're paying for all of that. Not to mention the time spend cutting...AND the fucking drill bits--they're not cheap and they sure don't last forever.

So the problem with my original design with the Matrix base is that the vertical support and the base were designed as 1" acrylic. Well, the CNC router can only pierce 1/2" deep per tooling path, so one pass would have to be made, then the part would have to be cleaned, remounted, then another identical pass would have to be made, just 1/2" deeper. And with all those crazy cut-outs in the base, it would take forever and a ton of material would be wasted.

Just the 1" stock alone going into the base would be around $30...no labor.

Not good. So he suggested an alternative: go with a more common 3/16" stock and to make up for the loss in structural stability, use heat-bending to form a wide (hollow) pillar.

Plus, a circular base would result in the shortest tooling path for cutting the base, BUT it would mean a fairly significant amount of material waste since circles can't be nested side by side on a huge stock sheet like rectangles can. Well, either way, I submit the design to you guys. It'll likely be very cheap in this form, which is obviously great, but there are three issues: 1) it'll have to be glued...that's no longer an option, 2) shipping will be a little trickier because it's no longer flat pieces, and 3) it sure looks a lot less interesting than the first design...




Now, I'll get this design priced out. The quantity will "per run" will be determined by how many of these three parts' flat patterns can be nested on a single one of their largest stock 3/16" acrylic sheet (I'm guessing their biggest sheets will be 4' x 8').

If the price really ends up being dirt cheap, maybe we can fuck with it a little. I know Gcrush digs the plain circular base...and I gotta admit: the sheer simplicity IS kinda elegant (remember the entire piece is crystal clear!). But maybe we can compromise by doing a Cybertron silhouette afterall. No additional inner cutouts...just the outer shape.

Whadday'all think?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2010 06:29PM by Sanjeev.
Attachments:
open | download - 001.jpg (35 KB)
open | download - 002.jpg (44.1 KB)
I think gluing sucks.

I guess the design is cool, I'm more concerned about Unicron not stagediving!

-Ginrai
Golden Gate Riot on dead trees at: [www.destroyallcomics.com]
I'm still down for whatever you come up with, Sanjeev! Could you somehow do a round tube in the middle instead of a square? I think they sell acrylic in a round tube shape in different diameters already. It would just be a matter of cutting it precisely.
Sanjeev (Admin)
Ginrai Wrote:
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> I think gluing sucks.

Just outta curiosity, what about gluing don't you like? In general, I *like* to design elegant things that rely on clever geometry rather than glue to function properly.

It's kinda tough to see on my original design, but at the top of the support, there is a small interlocking "hook" that mates with a notch at the rear of the cradle. See, that's clever because the center of mass of the toy is located over the forked front part of the cradle (beyond the support underneath). That interlocking joint, therefore, functions not only to keep a grip on the cradle, but also to absorb the torque of the toy pushing down on the cradle and levering it over the fulcrum (the front edge of the support at the top).

All that said, I'd STILL recommend gluing that fucking thing! :P

True, the primary task of maintaining the toy's weight would be pulled off by the natural design of the joint, but the glue would be needed to hold stuff in place to prevent the cradle just falling off accidentally while removing the toy or putting it back on the stand.

Oh, and if you didn't glue the original Unicron.com stand, you'd have been FUCKED.

So, I guess I'm saying that I'd love to accommodate you, but it ain't gonna happen! ;) It's all good, though--I appreciate the feedback. It's got me thinking. The design I just pictured above *really* relies on the glue to counter the torque produced by the toy. If that glue happens to fail, you're fucked. I think I'll redesign it a little to add a "natural" counter-lever.

Anyway, the bottom line is that with this design, Unicron will not shelf-dive. Word is bond.

Scope, I appreciate your support, brotha. They do offer acrylic tube, but that stuff's just not versatile enough to provide the geometry necessary here. Incidentally, while I didn't bother rounding the edges of the support in the pics above, they will be much smoother-looking. Anyway, Ginrai's given me some ideas for a third iteration...which may also provide an opportunity to doctor up the looks of this thing. Stay tuned.
The limits of working with the 1" thick stuff does make sense.

As to the base, my take is that round is fine, if it makes or breaks the price going into crazytown.
Most of these things, including mine, are displayed up fairly high, so you're not going to generally be able to appreciate, or show off the detail on the base without taking the thing down from on high, and blowing the dust off. **ha-CHOoo**
More important from a displaying perspective, that, "WOW, there's a Unicron planet froating on your shelf, dude!"
It's really cool to read up on the design process here; thanks for sharing. I don't have a Unicron, but if I did, this would be a no-brainer.

Just some thoughts: The simple circular design would work for me, too, if I had a Unicron. I generally dislike toys needing stands (hello, Masterpiece Megs), but if one does, I'd prefer something that doesn't distract from the toy itself, which is why the use of clear acrylic is a really good choice (not to mention it'll look cool). Here's a nerd comment: Given that Unicron was neither Cybertron nor Destron, the use of a Cybertron faction silhouette might not be appropriate anyway. Or if you do go with a faction insignia, maybe you could do half of each. Anyway, that's why the plain design works better for me, not to mention it'll probably be cheaper on your end. Elaborate display stands have always struck me as being kitschy.

Anyway, I think and hope that this will do gangbusters, and I'll be sure to shill this on the various TF boards you can't stand when it comes out, though you probably won't need the help anyway.
gingaio Wrote:
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> It's really cool to read up on the design process
> here; thanks for sharing. I don't have a Unicron,
> but if I did, this would be a no-brainer.
>
> Just some thoughts: The simple circular design
> would work for me, too, if I had a Unicron. I
> generally dislike toys needing stands (hello,
> Masterpiece Megs), but if one does, I'd prefer
> something that doesn't distract from the toy
> itself, which is why the use of clear acrylic is a
> really good choice (not to mention it'll look
> cool). Here's a nerd comment: Given that Unicron
> was neither Cybertron nor Destron, the use of a
> Cybertron faction silhouette might not be
> appropriate anyway. Or if you do go with a faction
> insignia, maybe you could do half of each. Anyway,
> that's why the plain design works better for me,
> not to mention it'll probably be cheaper on your
> end. Elaborate display stands have always struck
> me as being kitschy.
>
> Anyway, I think and hope that this will do
> gangbusters, and I'll be sure to shill this on the
> various TF boards you can't stand when it comes
> out, though you probably won't need the help
> anyway.

Personally, I like the plain circle, but if it must look like something, why not make it look like a silhouette of Unicron itself in planet mode? That's circular already, and you could have the rings and his fang/mandible thingies sticking out with the actual post for the stand coming out of the middle of the silhouette.

More serious than thou
fujikuro Wrote:
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> Personally, I like the plain circle, but if it
> must look like something, why not make it look
> like a silhouette of Unicron itself in planet
> mode? That's circular already, and you could have
> the rings and his fang/mandible thingies sticking
> out with the actual post for the stand coming out
> of the middle of the silhouette.

That was what the unicron.com one looked like. It would be okay by me to reuse the idea though, and make it sturdier this time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2010 04:07PM by Scopedog.
People like me with ham hands suck at gluing anything. I wouldn't know the right kind of glue and would undoubtably make it ooze out the side and make a mess. Also like you said, it's kind of not great if glue is the thing keeping Unicron from falling as glue can fail, especially if someone inept at gluing like me does a shitty job gluing.

-Ginrai
Golden Gate Riot on dead trees at: [www.destroyallcomics.com]
Sanjeev (Admin)
Aiight, on the strength...it's been a MAD slow week. And Gin Gin's tied up in material testing. So I've got probably too much time devoted to this shit! ;)

BUT...I think I may have gotten it figured out. Not only have I basically eliminated the need for glue (though I still officially recommend it), but I've even eliminated a whole part!

I know this is gonna look *ultra* basic, but I'm really starting to dig the idea of a purely utilitarian stand. On it's own, it looks pretty simple, but when it comes to acrylic, I'm beginning to think simple equals elegant. Like Chieh said, even an ornate design will never look TOTALLLY right, so like the Unicron.com stand, it'll probably end up looking kinda chintzy. Plus, with Unicron mounted, there won't be any weird stuff going on to distract from the toy.

Check it:




Oh, incidentally, I've been fooling around with colors and transparency to try to show these designs in a way that's understandable. The flat white background seems to help, along with slightly translucent colors.

Still, it's tough to tell what I did, so here's a couple closeups featuring the two parts' edges highlighted in the two views:



The front portion of the support now simply pegs into the cradle, while the back of the cradle features a hooked tab that fits into a slot in the back portion of the support. Again, clever design: remember, the center of mass of the toy rests over the front forks/fingers of the cradle, so the natural tendency is for the cradle to act as a lever and flip over the front portion of the support. The tabs on the front of the support fit into small holes on the cradle; they just hold that fulcrum in place, but they don't bear any load. The weight of the toy will keep this connection in place. Now, what bears the load is the slot in the back portion of the support: when the curved tab on the cradle slots through, the lever can't move. So, while holding the cradle in place, the slot also acts as a natural counter-balance. Bored yet? (Typing long-winded explanations to dumb aircraft designers is what pays the bills! :P )



Anyway, no base part whatsoever and MUCH shorter tool paths! Just a few extra cutouts to compensate.

Dig it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2010 06:57PM by Sanjeev.
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open | download - 001.jpg (55.3 KB)
open | download - 002.jpg (73.6 KB)
open | download - 003.jpg (197.6 KB)
open | download - 004.jpg (122.1 KB)
That looks really good, actually! Did the dude at the manufacturing plant thing say it was affordable?

-Ginrai
Golden Gate Riot on dead trees at: [www.destroyallcomics.com]
Sanjeev,

The functionality is appealing. Work your magic.
Sanjeev,

How did you determine the height? I've liked all the designs but I would like the height to be taller if possible. I know this sounds deflating but wouldn't a wire frame with two fishing lines for stability work just as well for much cheaper? That would make the planet mode flote in the air just like a hanging plant. Still a big fan of the design though but if the material cost is basically the same I'd like the base to be as tall as financially possible.
Sanjeev (Admin)
Ginrai, I got a bit busy at work, so I never got a chance to update my technical drawings and send them to the fabrication shops I'm pricing out. I'll whip something up early next week for these guys and start shopping around the design during the week. Heh...late last night, it struck me to contact Joel at BBTS and pimp them to him to retail for me! :P

Scope, good looks.

Marvin, peep the (old) screenshot below. It shows what I basically do: I took a profile photograph of the toy, resized it in Photoshop so that it matches the toy's dimensions perfectly, then I create a flat surface in the CAD model matching the pic's dimensions. In Pro/E, you can map an image to a model color, so I do that to paste the image onto the surface, and simply build around it.



Now you know my secrets! ;) But just notice how the cradle matches the geometry of the feet fucking perfectly. That's what's up.

As it turns out, my latest design is almost 1/2" taller than the Unicron.com stand, but whatever. Do you really want it to be taller than that?? Even though the Unicron.com stand was mostly useless, I thought it was a perfect height:



If everyone agrees it should be taller, making the change would be trivial. I don't think it would affect the price too much, either.

I like the idea of a hanging plant-style display, and I'm SURE other folks out there are doing this. But obviously, a fancy wired display is kinda semi-permanent. I'd personally prefer a stand so the toy can be easily taken off and played with, and I can move the stand around to display the toy wherever I want...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2010 04:43PM by Sanjeev.
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open | download - 005.jpg (18.5 KB)
Yer talkin' all fancy, so I'll have to see the lab printout from the structural analysis, and stress tests first. ;0p

Heights fine for me. It'd never fit on top of many places without hitting the ceiling if way taller. Turned with the ring vertical, this takes up mucho spacero.
Sanjeev Wrote:
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> As it turns out, my latest design is almost 1/2"
> taller than the Unicron.com stand, but whatever.

For some reason, the photo of Unicron on the old stand comes off as slightly erotic to me. Maybe it's the erect moon-sack suspended over the 'gina-jaws. I don't know. It's just... Gloriously transexual.
Sanjeev (Admin)
Gcrush Wrote:
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> Sanjeev Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > As it turns out, my latest design is almost
> 1/2"
> > taller than the Unicron.com stand, but
> whatever.
>
> For some reason, the photo of Unicron on the old
> stand comes off as slightly erotic to me. Maybe
> it's the erect moon-sack suspended over the
> 'gina-jaws. I don't know. It's just...
> Gloriously transexual.

Don't ever come near me.

Introducing Prometheus Rising Studio.
[prometheusrising.net]
I make 3D printed mecha action figures.
Sanjeev Wrote:
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> [www.youtube.com]

I love that movie.


Prometheum5 Wrote:
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> Don't ever come near me.

C'mon, now. Unicron's design is about as subtle as all the variations on face-rape found in Alien.
Sanjeev,

The stand is actually taller than I had originally thought. I figured it to be about 3 to 4 inches off the ground and I see that it is about 8 inches.


(I guess the black guy is always wanting to come correct on the inches! HAHAHAHA

but less face it it's really the only positive stereotype we got. HAHAHA)
Sanjeev (Admin)
Haha...hey, ya gotta work with whatchu got, man! ;)
Unicron with green LED eyes & hand is just jam packed with awesomeness! Thanks for c717905's tutorial at TFW2005 forum & a couple hours of work, I got mine done. The swap is not hard to do, but need to be patient soldering the very small wires and be very careful with the connected wires and pay a lot of attention on how to put them all back when done without clipping any wires when closing the parts back together. I used the following LEDs:

3mm green - 19mcd 2Vf@10mA - viewing angle 60 (eyes)
5mm green clear - 140mcd 2.2Vf@20mA - viewing angle 24 (hand)

With these LEDs spec, I find the lights a bit weaker than the original red LEDs. Acceptable, but not as bright. So when you do yours, you may want to go for something brighter, unless you like the more subtle look like how mine turned out. You can get these LEDs at local electronic stores for $0.5 - $3 a pop, depending on the spec of the LEDs. So its a pretty cheap mod, and well worth your time.

THIS is the Unicron it should have been!
Sanjeev (Admin)
Useless without pics, damnit! :P

And while you're at it, please post the link to the tutorial (no, I'm not about to search for it myself on TFW2005...).
Sanjeev Wrote:
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> Useless without pics, damnit! :P
>
> And while you're at it, please post the link to
> the tutorial (no, I'm not about to search for it
> myself on TFW2005...).

No pictures, but here's the thread:

[www.tfw2005.com]


Not the best way to show it in a bright room, but it'll have to do for now, since thats all I can get from my work desk.

A note on the hand. The setup is a bit different. The LED is a 5mm (larger) and looks better if you can find a clear green one, as you can see it through the transparent hand at the wrist joint. The LED is not attached to a circuit board like the eyes LED, but just 2 skinny wires. The orange wire is the '+', and the black one is '-'. Just solder the wires correctly to the LED poles. Easier to remove than the eyes LED as you just melt the solder on the wire connection, instead of prying it off the circuit board with xacto knife (while melting the solder). But when soldering the new green LED on, you really wish you have 3 hands to work on this LOL, as they are so small and all loves to roll around or move out of places as you try to get them to stick. You can use a piece of scotch tape to tape down the LED so it doesn't roll around. Be patient & don't accidentally burn your toy, or worse, your house. :D



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2010 02:53PM by mpchi.
Sanjeev (Admin)
AWESOME! Thanks for posting the pic, mpchi!

Will have to give this a shot soon.
Thanks for the heads up on some specs! I'll have to dig some LEDs up next weekend. Cool.
I'd definitely would love to go brighter, but will have to wait till I actually pull apart a Unicron to see what's in there from the factory, and don't want to go burning out the power source. =p
Sanjeev (Admin)
Jon, still waiting on those green LEDs. C'mon man...that's fucked up.

:P

Ah, but y'know what's fucking money? Maybe even *better* than Jon installing some green LEDs in my Unicron??? Sanjeev comes through with the motherfucking acrylic stand!






I redesigned the joint a little bit at the top to prevent that ugly hook rig in the back from bumping into Unicron while he's up there. Of course, in doing so, it looks a lot more streamlined.

Anyway, I got the first prototype last night. HOLY SHIT. It turned out a helluva lot better than I could have ever hoped. The parts fit together very simply and it requires absolutely no glue.

The crystal clear acrylic is a bit of a dust and fingerprint magnet, but what can ya do? It's still gorgeous! The only aesthetic problem is that it can get scratched. This is something I didn't foresee. Take a REAL close look at bottom of the base in the very first (top) pic. You can just faintly make out some hairline scratches in an almost swirling pattern. Well, as soon as I got the stand outta the box, I threw on the cradle, popped Unicron on top, then set it down on my desk. Apparently, my desk is where I've been keeping my fucking invisible sand collection...because I started rather violently twisting the stand, side to side, to see if Unicron would topple. The polished bottom surface didn't like my lack of housekeeping...hence the scratches.

Solution: clear, self-adhering bompons. I just learned the word "bompon" today. I'll throw in four per stand...no extra charge. 'Cause I'm a great guy. :P

Anyway, who cares about all that? You wanna hear how this motherfucker performs! Holy hell. With Unicron on top, you can pick the whole thing up by the base and whizz the thing around your room! It ain't falling off!

Obviously, the toy rattles around on top of the cradle because it's such a smooth surface, but because the notch for the orbital ring pylon is so form-fitting (and the angles of the cradle are so precise), it's tough as hell to knock the thing off once it's on. I set the thing down on a table and shook it back and forth and side to side. Nothing. I tipped it over front, back, and either side a good 30 degrees...and the thing held...albeit precariously.

The bottom line is that this thing smokes the Unicron.com stand.

But y'all wanna see how the whole rig looks, right? Always save the best for last...







Uh...Unicron's planet wings are at the dry-cleaner's. Quit complaining! I'll take better pics when I get a chance (and when I get the damn wings back!).

Anyway, Scope mentioned $30. It's looking like that'll be close...it all depends on how much freight'll cost to get all these fucking things sent to my house.

I've got a couple dozen on their way. If we need more, we can just order more. I honestly fear the onslaught of Transfans once they get wind of this... :P

It's kinda nice when we make our own toys, huh? ;)
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