Shape my Ways

Posted by B00 
Sanjeev (Admin)
Okay, got Gin Gin's left fist back from i.materialise. Apples to apples comparison with polished polyamide...

First off, the Prime Gray is very nice. Is the resolution comparable to 3D Systems' hi-res photopolymer? No fucking way. But it's still tight. What's interesting is that it's SUPER-sharp. Like, the layer thickness is no where near as small as some other hi-res offerings out there, but the layers it produces are strong, hard, and glossy.

Here's a side-by-side pic with the exact same model in Shapeways polished polyamide (before they went straight to hell, apparently):



Don't get me wrong: the polished polyamide doesn't feel terrible. It's kinda smooth even though you can see the graininess in the pic. By contrast, the Prime Gray is kinda wild: see, when you run your fingertips along the surface, you can actually feel the print lines like tiny fingerprints. But between those microscopic ridges, it's super glossy.

Here are a couple closeups of the pic above:





Trust me: the Prime Gray is accurate to the CAD model. When zoomed in, the polyamide looks doughy and misshapen by comparison.

Here's another good side-by-side:



The bottom line is that the detail is magnificently sharper on the Prime Gray. I can see why they call it "luxurious". But then again, those print lines--while aesthetically pleasing--may be exactly what you DON'T want (like if you want your print to serve as a pattern master for molding...but then again, you don't want polyamide for that either).

As for mechanical properties, I'd say believe the hype. Prime Gray is about as tough as the polyamide. I've beaten the shit outta both of these pieces, and they won't break unless I really go Hulk Smash on 'em. That's plenty good'nuff for me.

My biggest concern is painting. I'm just not sure how those print lines will look when such a piece is painted. Hell, I'm not even sure how paint will adhere to this shit (since it's actually pretty glossy). We'll see...I'll get Walker on the job.

Standby for closeups...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2012 04:35PM by Sanjeev.
Attachments:
open | download - IMG_0573.JPG (147.6 KB)
open | download - IMG_0574.JPG (145.8 KB)
open | download - 001.jpg (62.4 KB)
open | download - 002.jpg (85.5 KB)
Sanjeev (Admin)
And here's a nice trio of closeups I just shot. They really show off the glossiness of individual print layers and the sharp transitions between each layer...







The top pic is basically how the piece "normally" looks, but given the right lighting, if you tilt the piece just slightly, you can get some wild reflectivity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2012 04:39PM by Sanjeev.
Attachments:
open | download - IMG_0575.JPG (281.9 KB)
open | download - IMG_0576.JPG (311.8 KB)
open | download - IMG_0577.JPG (305.6 KB)
B00
How large is that part? The print layer dont look bad, but for smaller things, like my gun sword, it probly wouldn't look so good.

__________________
MoonBaseTom Season tickets available. Call now.
Sanjeev (Admin)
The shield has a diameter of about 41mm, and the fist is about 11mm across the four punchy knuckles. So pretty small...but yeah, for smaller stuff like your weapons, it might not fly unless they're mostly hard angles and not too many complex curvature surfaces.
B00
Guess who got a new camera?


EOD Cannon_3 by t.birge, on Flickr


Kup with Ultra Magnum by t.birge, on Flickr

__________________
MoonBaseTom Season tickets available. Call now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2012 12:04AM by B00.
Sanjeev (Admin)
"Ultra Magnum"! Har! Never caught that before!

Beautiful shots, man.
B00
Thanks man, now I can show off my weapons an have them look less crapply printed.

__________________
MoonBaseTom Season tickets available. Call now.
Well, that Prime Gray is exactly how I was expecting it. It's the exact same one as the "paintable resin" I use for my prints. You can see the print layers but the good thing is that you can easily sand it and it becomes super smooth. Of course you need time to do that but once it's done you can use is as a master for doing molds. Which is not the case of Polyamide who will stay grainy and porous.

As for painting, once it's sanded, it's just perfect. I've paint all the prints I've done with this material and they all came out perfect. The paint will soften a bit the last tiny trace of print layers.

Of course the pieces I'm printing are quite big so it's easy to sand and maybe tiny parts like that will be harder to clean.
Maybe you need to check the "paintable resin" and get a quote for a painted one, it's going to be more expensive but they are supposed to sand it and clean it so that it's super smooth. It's maybe going to kill the price if you want to make it for each order you got for the GinGin.
B00
Rather than ordering my ripper model from zoom (90 some dollars) I ordered my crusader gun/sword (52.78) still a good bit steeper than shapeways. Lets hope poly jet is worth it. Also Zoom's standard shipping cost is 24.99 USD!!!! Holy shit, they must use gold for packing material or something. Must be a crazy over night shipping. I'll call 'em tomorrow and ask them if they can send my print in a small box at a more reasonable rate.

Also, Sanjeev are you going to sand that prime gray model? I'm still interested in the material for larger models.

__________________
MoonBaseTom Season tickets available. Call now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/13/2012 10:34PM by B00.
Sanjeev (Admin)
Wait--ZRP is a company IN the US...and they charge $25 to ship *within* the US? Haha...okay, that's GOTTA be overnight or something. i.m was $15 from Belgium. That's reasonable.

Anyway, the thing that's got me a little confused about i.m is that their "paintable resin" (SLA) is listed as having less strength than their Prime Gray (also SLA). So these must be different machines/photopolymers...like Objet versus 3D Systems at Shapeways.

I haven't tried to sand the Prime Gray fist I got, but I certainly can. It's not my plan to do so, however, in production: I'm talking with i.m now and I think that if they simply print the model with the fist pointed straight up, the print lines will be a lot less visible (or at least they'll look more symmetrical). Plus, they don't actually look bad to me! When you handle the part, it's actually pretty tough to notice (my camera's just THAT good! :P )...and once it's painted and top-coated, the effects will be minimized even further.

Regardless, I think Prime Gray is probably the best alternative, overall, to polyamide for tough production parts. i.m's paintable resin seems like it'd be great for masters for larger parts. For tiny parts (like MUSCLE-style guys), I think their "high detail resin" will probably be the best because it's got sharper detail than the paintable stuff.

One last price check:
A full-set of Foe Gokin Gin Gin's arms in Prime Gray from i.m is $40, while it's $31 in polished polyamide from Shapeways. In my opinion, for $9, you're getting a substantial bump in quality and consistency (the latter of which, I think, is SUPER-critical). I'll see if I can get that full-set printed vertically as we've talked about...
Sanjeev Wrote:
>
> I haven't tried to sand the Prime Gray fist I got,
> but I certainly can. It's not my plan to do so,
> however, in production: I'm talking with i.m now
> and I think that if they simply print the model
> with the fist pointed straight up, the print lines
> will be a lot less visible (or at least they'll
> look more symmetrical).

That's very clever! If they run around the tube of the forearm, even if they're visible, the ridges would look more like an intended detail.

-Paul Segal

"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
Sanjeev (Admin)
Exactly! And even though I didn't think to photograph it, the print lines don't look all that great on the shield, itself. I mean, they don't look BAD--they just look as one would expect: a bunch of parallel lines. If I can get them to print vertically instead of side-to-side, the print lines will appear as concentric circles on the shield...which I think would look kinda sweet!
B00
There seems to be an alarming trend brewing. Small 3rd party Chinese toy groups are making toys out of prints ordered from shapeways. It's like the 3rd partys guys have found a source of toy and weapon designs they don't have to make themselves!

The gun that comes with Igears new Rager figure was taken from a TFW shapeways guy (cant finde his store will keep looking).

There is a new Leader optimus prime axe set, the axe came from a friends shapeways site.

[www.tfw2005.com]

[www.shapeways.com]

He hasn't commented back as to whether or not he knows about it, or is involved. But I can see 3rd party guys having a field day with per-desinged protos off shapeways.

Im going to remove FUD from all my public models.

__________________
MoonBaseTom Season tickets available. Call now.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/2012 10:06PM by B00.
Sanjeev (Admin)
Huh.

Well, isn't the whole point of 3D printing to be open source? It sucks when someone steals your design and then *profits* from it...but I can't imagine any way that's NOT gonna inevitably happen.
B00
I had a feeling this was going to start happening at some point.

__________________
MoonBaseTom Season tickets available. Call now.
Sanjeev (Admin)
Right. And I see no way to stop it...but the thing is, I'm not even convinced it SHOULD be stopped. Heh...maybe I've been listening to Gcrush and his post-scarcity rants too much! ;)
B00
New material! It's squishy!!

__________________
MoonBaseTom Season tickets available. Call now.
Sanjeev Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Right. And I see no way to stop it...but the thing
> is, I'm not even convinced it SHOULD be stopped.
> Heh...maybe I've been listening to Gcrush and his
> post-scarcity rants too much! ;)


You know it, baby!
Sanjeev (Admin)
That new shit is MAD sketchy. They print something semi-rigid, then apply an "infiltrant" to rubberize it? Fuck that. If handling something made out of it isn't carcinogenic, then the plasticizer's gonna leech anyway after how ever long...



Gcrush Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You know it, baby!

On the strength, man...we've got to start rethinking the concept of "ownership" from the ground up.
Sanjeev Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gcrush Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You know it, baby!
>
> On the strength, man...we've got to start
> rethinking the concept of "ownership" from the
> ground up.

Commies.
Sanjeev (Admin)
Relic.








:P
Sanjeev Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Relic.
>
> :P

Nah, 'Jeev, COMMIES!

[www.gijoecon.com]

Once again, the people behind the GI Joe con have, with Hasbro's blessings, created a super-exclusive set of figs. The problem is that the exclusive figs this time are of some really popular Commies from my favorite Animated Military-Industrial-Entertainment-Complex Show.

I know that the con organizers need a way to justify to attendees the high cost of attending, but man, this is really when I wish there was a more practical Shapeways-esque or made-to-order type of delivery system. It could allow prices to go down (over $300 for the set is fairly obscene) and reach more people.
Sanjeev (Admin)
Oh, so you're suggesting they make the custom heads and whatnot used in these exclusive figures available as downloadable files that folks can print out and use to customize their own toys?

Sure, that'd be ideal...we're just not at that level yet.

Forget China...can you imagine what shit would be like if laser scanners weren't in the *few thousand dollar* range? Scan the fuck outta ANYTHING...post a torrent of the file...print 'em up...get Ben to paint 'em for ya. Boom. Done.
Sanjeev Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh, so you're suggesting they make the custom
> heads and whatnot used in these exclusive figures
> available as downloadable files that folks can
> print out and use to customize their own toys?
>
> Sure, that'd be ideal...we're just not at that
> level yet.
>
Right. But regarding these figs, what I had in mind was just some simple version of, "You pay upfront to reserve a set and we'll make sure you it" system. Because the current system, which involves an arbitrary production number, rewards scalpers and is totally inefficient and wasteful. Nothing new there, though.
>
> Forget China...can you imagine what shit would be
> like if laser scanners weren't in the *few
> thousand dollar* range? Scan the fuck outta
> ANYTHING...post a torrent of the file...print 'em
> up...get Ben to paint 'em for ya. Boom. Done.
>
Heh. Definitely. In fact, I've got another batch of custom Joe parts I'm getting ready to send the kid to get painted. The thing about rethinking IP/ownership, though, is that on a very basic level, I still feel there needs to be a system in place for people who create product and innovate ideas to be compensated fairly for those products and ideas.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2012 09:01PM by gingaio.
Sanjeev (Admin)
gingaio Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...I still feel there needs to be a system in
> place for people who create product and innovate
> ideas to be compensated fairly for those products
> and ideas.


Of course. Having some sort of incentive to innovate is always nice. We're a clever species...we'll figure it out.
gingaio Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Right. But regarding these figs, what I had in
> mind was just some simple version of, "You pay
> upfront to reserve a set and we'll make sure you
> it" system. Because the current system, which
> involves an arbitrary production number, rewards
> scalpers and is totally inefficient and wasteful.
> Nothing new there, though.

The Oktober Gard look awesome, but the fish-headed doods in dusters are boring as hell. It's a shame we'll never see the Guard offered on their own.


> Heh. Definitely. In fact, I've got another set of
> custom Joe parts I'm getting ready to send the kid
> to get painted. The thing about rethinking
> IP/ownership, though, is that on a very basic
> level, I still feel there needs to be a system in
> place for people who create product and innovate
> ideas to be compensated fairly for those products
> and ideas.

I'm undecided on this point. I’m not even sure if we should be compensated for IP or not. If we look at human history, the concept is relatively young. The spread of human beings across the planet and our ever growing technical sophistry is based on ripping off ideas. The major tool shifts in the archaeological record even bear this out. We see something cool and then copy this shit out of it. We weren’t getting paid for it before and the notion that we should is very strongly entrenched in some specific histories.

We are also very desperately attached to that notion since it turns the chugging engines of the economic juggernauts upon which we all seem to ride. But the only way we can cling to the notion of idea-control in a post-scarcity world is voluntarily opting for the totalitarian licensing of everything as consumable goods and charging people not for ownership, but continual use. In other words, a subscription service for everything – the websites you use, the shoes you wear, the pistons in your car… Everything, all the time, regardless of whether it is “used up” when put to work for you or not.

While there is an arms race between producers and pirates, it has only one inevitable outcome if we don’t change our thinking. Because, at some point, we have to deal with the issue that the pirates not only embody the very threat of lost wealth, they also lack the wealth to represent any concerted political will that could actually change the system. It’s already happening. We’ve so handily turned essential items like food, water, energy, shelter, and medicine into for-profit industries that no one batted an eye when someone said, “You need to pay for telephone communication the same way. Oh, and by the way, your books, movies, music, and html are next.” Yes, distributed costs are an important force behind innovation, but you know what? When we surrender control over how those costs are utilized we end up with some awful shit.

When’s the last time you went to a movie theater? Of those times, how often did you feel like you got your money’s worth? And how cool are you with the idea that physical media like DVDs are already dead since you can’t really “own” the one movie you did enjoy when you saw it at the theater? And soon your monthly Netflix bill will be replaced with a meter that runs every time you watch something? Is anything you consume as entertainment worth that level of cost and intrusion? Personally, I’m not crazy about art and entertainment as commercial businesses. Tying them up with economic constraints has resulted in the continual glut of creative stagnation that pollutes the mediums of our expression. We make so much stuff and so little of it is praiseworthy as stylistically or conceptually innovative. It’s about 99% barely differentiated refuse fueled by the pressure to make a buck. Everyone seems to know this. Consumers are so fucking jaded and ironic in their sensibilities. And that sucks. So, what’s the alternative?

In a future where our understanding of the means of production have moved so far beyond scarcity that the nature of work itself changes, I think we will see more wondrous art unfold as people are free to collaborate and share their efforts without fear of being plundered out of a dollar. Considering how much of the time, money, and energy in the scarcity-based production process is consumed by business demands and middlemen, people will probably have more of all of those to dedicate to their passion once post-scarcity is openly accepted. There is definitely the potential for less waste, better stuff, and a renewed spirit of imagination. Yes, for our economic existence we might all have to contribute to things with direct material and technological applications to human life, but that’s a lot less unpleasant than it sounds and we’d probably be happier doing it considering the rewards. With most of society contributing we’d all work a lot less, too.

The future could literally explode with crazy, awesome shit in ways that we can’t even begin to imagine and the playing field would be so open that we could all be a contributing part of it. And that’s pretty fucking awesome. By contrast, I can't see a single upside to the path we're currently on aside from more and more of the same grueling scramble to try to make enough bucks to stay afloat, let lone get ahead.
Sanjeev (Admin)
Agreed on pretty much every level.

Jeremy and I were discussing this the transitioning from where we're at now to post-scarcity, and how that affects DIY toy makers or comic book writers. We came up with a interesting (if not quite fully-fleshed out) idea for producing a toy...though this may also be applied to other physical commodities or even media like music or whatever.

Okay...so you announce your intention to create your toy, and you regularly post (via blog, twitter, facebook, etc.) your progress in prototyping the thing. That builds awareness of who you are and what the toy is among your potential customer base. As production proceeds, you get a feel for how much it's gonna cost to get the whole thing off the ground. You also get a sense of how much you *want*, overall, for your toy...based on public feedback (and personal factors, of course).

So, once things are ready to rock, you open the doors to "donations" (or whatever you want to call it). People can sort of "pledge" different amounts to get your design "released" into the public. And once you hit your profit target, your toy goes out to everyone who pledged...but with the knowledge that essentially, the design is *out there* in the public domain, for all intents and purposes.

I think this system--hopefully unfettered by greed or the mandates of competition created by capitalism--would help foster responsibility on the part of the producer and the buyer. The producer would need to cap his/her profit margin at something realistic. And buyers would be responsible for stepping up an "voting with their dollars" to get the thing made/released in the first place. Either way, open communication between the two would be fostered, hopefully, via the organic nature of the tools we have available today.

Anyway, like I said, not fully fleshed out...but I think it has potential. Again, we're a clever species.
gingaio Wrote:
>
> [www.gijoecon.com]
>
> Once again, the people behind the GI Joe con have,
> with Hasbro's blessings, created a super-exclusive
> set of figs. The problem is that the exclusive
> figs this time are of some really popular Commies
> from my favorite Animated
> Military-Industrial-Entertainment-Complex Show.

Holy crap, I was gonna think, "I can live without the Oktober Guard", but then I saw that they also come with a truckload of gorgeous Iron Grenadiers. Dammit, WHAT is the motivation of making things like this convention exclusive anymore, besides to make a small number of fans feel special because they can afford to make the trip?

Gcrush Wrote:
>
> The Oktober Gard look awesome, but the fish-headed
> doods in dusters are boring as hell.

DO YOU EVEN LIKE G.I. JOE???

-Paul Segal

"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
asterphage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dammit, WHAT is the motivation of making things
> like this convention exclusive anymore, besides to
> make a small number of fans feel special because
> they can afford to make the trip?

It's the weenie wagging ghost of the scarcity economy.


> Gcrush Wrote:
> >
> > The Oktober Gard look awesome, but the
> fish-headed
> > doods in dusters are boring as hell.
>
> DO YOU EVEN LIKE G.I. JOE???

In Soviet Russia, GI Joe doesn't like you.
Sanjeev Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, once things are ready to rock, you open the
> doors to "donations" (or whatever you want to call
> it). People can sort of "pledge" different amounts
> to get your design "released" into the public. And
> once you hit your profit target, your toy goes out
> to everyone who pledged...but with the knowledge
> that essentially, the design is *out there* in the
> public domain, for all intents and purposes.

I'm with you. The basic idea is good. It's like the GNU of commercial products. "Okay, I made it this first time and thanks for all your help. If anyone wants to take another run at it, cool. Enjoy. I'm moving on to other things." Which is, it seems, like what the 3rd Act Transformers toy makers are doing since they've started ripping each other off and making add-ons for add-ons. Right?
[Deleted] Posted in wrong thread.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2012 10:08PM by gingaio.
Gcrush Wrote:
>
> It's the weenie wagging ghost of the scarcity
> economy.

So what do you think is the key force behind this, that causes Hasbro to sell the products this way, when with other exclusives (like their Comic-Con merchandise) they sell them at a delay online, sometimes with higher prices? Is it just the company running the convention? Because that seems like an awful lot of pressure for convention organizers to exert, when Hasbro could be selling more toys, making more money and earning greater loyalty from their collectors.

-Paul Segal

"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
asterphage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So what do you think is the key force behind this,
> that causes Hasbro to sell the products this way...

If Hasbro can't move a certain number of units, they won't produce something at all. From what I've heard, it's a relatively huge number, too - in the tens of thousands. I don't know the details of convention exclusives like this, but I imagine the Joe Club or management front for the event is putting up the capital and not Hasbro; ergo, Hasbro lets them rent out the tooling for a significantly smaller-than-normal run. As long as Hasbro isn't left holding the bill, I suspect they're cool with this type of arrangement - just one more reason big companies are reluctant to sell directly to consumers. (Mattel being the notable exception, and we can see how "good" they are at it.)

Also, they care about impulse buys and cross-marketed media tie-in sales, not customer loyalty.
Sanjeev (Admin)
I guess the party's moved here!

Back to 3D printing stuff...

I got another 3D Systems hi-res ("FUD") print of that "WST Mazinger" I posted in the Absolutely Clear thread. The first one shown in the other thread is essentially perfect. Very crisp, very smooth.

The one I just got is mushy and has a rough, unfinished texture to it. *Sigh*

Are we sure that 3D Systems (from Shapeways) is *really* our best bet for maximum resolution??? (Well, apart from something professional that costs 10 times more, like my prototyper's EnvisionTEC machine...)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2012 02:36PM by Sanjeev.
B00
My order from zoom should be here in a few days, so I'll be able to comment on their poly jet material.

In other news, I've been getting surveys and "How can we improve our material" emails from shapeways. I've not been holding back, but at the same time I'm trying to be diplomatic about it so they will take my comments more seriously, but basically I told them to bring back the old WSF. The new stuff sucks and collapses.

__________________
MoonBaseTom Season tickets available. Call now.
Sanjeev (Admin)
Good for you. Smart.

Yeah, whatever the fuck they WERE doing with polyamide was on point. Now...yeesh.

I was just talking with Jason about some dude modeling the Cygnus from The Black Hole at different scales, and offering them as kits in WSF from his Shapeways store. I told J not to bother...and to contact the dude and urge him to make an i.m store so he can order it in Prime Gray--which, I think, would be fucking PERFECT for something like the Cygnus, given it's architectural feel.
B00
Oh my what do we have here? Table top injection molding system.

__________________
MoonBaseTom Season tickets available. Call now.
Sanjeev (Admin)
"inexpensive metal molds"? Last time I checked CNCing a metal mold from a CAD model was fuck-damn expensive. And "all in the same day"??? Umm...I don't know of a single machine shop that can turn around molds in that short a time span.

Sorry, man...this looks like vaporware.
B00
I know the description is full of shit, but the actual equipment is still very interesting. It's a good sign that independent and DIY production is growing and getting some nicer tools.

__________________
MoonBaseTom Season tickets available. Call now.
Sanjeev (Admin)
True indeed!

It's hard to conceive of an injection-molding machine NOT involving tons of steel...but here it is! In practice, I wonder where this sort of technology will fall. I mean, there's already full-scale injection molding with heavy steel dies--this is the most common form of mass-production in China. But there's also "non-permanent" molding, which many of the same factories offer: much cheaper start-up costs, but much higher (and lower quantity) unit costs.

Are these machines part of that latter production model...or are they an all-new technology that could bring things down yet another level (even CHEAPER start-up costs, but with pricier units)? If only we had someone in-the-know about this shit...
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login

footer