Shape my Ways

Posted by B00 
B00
asterphage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And when are we gonna be able to buy some of
> these? :D

My Shapeways


Shapeways switched up their White strong flex material. The new stuff isn't as nice. The gains are larger, the material isn't as dense or as heavy, and everything just looks more fuzzy. This is the main reason I'm looking to replace them.

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Sanjeev (Admin)
What the fuck. If that's the case, I'm getting my damn money back on the recent orders I placed....
B00
I was really disappointed when I received my last order. The top surface on all the models were sunk in an collapsed. I fear the same thing on my current order.



Shapeways basically said, sorry bout yer luck.

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2012 06:20PM by B00.
Attachments:
open | download - cutter_2.jpg (420.5 KB)
That looks way worse than the WSF prints I got a year or so ago... lots of people use that material as production for their items. Why would they fuck it up so badly?

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man I hope this doesn't affect my amassing shoulder empire
B00 Wrote:
>
> Shapeways switched up their White strong flex
> material. The new stuff isn't as nice. The gains
> are larger, the material isn't as dense or as
> heavy, and everything just looks more fuzzy. This
> is the main reason I'm looking to replace them.

Huh. What about the Frosted Ultra Detail? That gets a little pricey given the number of parts in some of your designs, but will that come out clean and sharp? I'm particularly thinking of how your gun-sword is gonna come out...

Edit: Oh, and what about the polished material? I see that listed as a material for the gun-sword.

-Paul Segal

"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2012 07:28PM by asterphage.
B00
asterphage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Huh. What about the Frosted Ultra Detail? That
> gets a little pricey given the number of parts in
> some of your designs, but will that come out clean
> and sharp? I'm particularly thinking of how your
> gun-sword is gonna come out...
>
> Edit: Oh, and what about the polished material? I
> see that listed as a material for the gun-sword.

Frosted Ultra detail is a much nicer material, but it's more brittle. It cant stand as much punishment as WSF can. That's why I made the blade for the gun/sword so thick (it's FUD only). The polished material is the same as WSF only put in a jewelry polisher. It can actually take details and small assembly parts right off.

Prometheum5 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That looks way worse than the WSF prints I got a
> year or so ago... lots of people use that material
> as production for their items. Why would they
> fuck it up so badly?

I think they switched to a cheaper material to cut corners, and save some cost. I'm not digg'n the new stuff.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2012 07:54PM by B00.
Sanjeev (Admin)
Fuck that right in the ass. "Sorry bout yer luck" is fucking unacceptable, Tom. If their quality has legitimately gone down the shitter for one of their most popular materials, then they can't just get away with not mentioning that crap, and continuing to charge people full gods damned price.

I'm thinking of going with i.materialise from now on. Hell, mikenozon told me *ages* ago to forget Shapeshit and get on board with i.m. They're the ones doing his custom Jumbo villains...and clearly, they're doing a dope job given how sweet those things are. From what I understand, they actually own their fucking machines and operate them themselves. No weak-ass excuses.

And they print in polyamide. Motherfucker.

I never ordered from them, but I remember them being pricier than Shapeways. But probably not as high as ZoomRP. I'll give them a shot this Sunday and see how they stack up.
B00
Let me know. I'd like to cut loose from shapeways as well. It's been non-stop crap with the crusader, they keep rejecting it over the small pins in the model. They gave me all kinda of misleading error reports, thin walls for a .99mm object, multiple shells for a single shell water tight mesh. All they had to do was say, "get rid of the small pin". Man I hate those guys.

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If I was looking to have a friend of mine CAD some ass cheeks to add to my 25th Joe line figures, you know, the kind you glue on but don't LOOK like they're TOO bulbous. Which guys would you go with?

Sorry, but that thread was getting way too intense.
Sanjeev (Admin)
Sanjeev Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...a part in polished
> polyamide from Shapeways (Foe Gokin Gin Gin's left
> fist/shield) is about $7. From ZRP, the same damn
> thing is either $61 in SLA or $77 in ABS.
>
> ...another part (MUSCLE "Baby"
> Gin Gin) in 3D Systems' hi-res shit from Shapeways
> is $20. The same part is $46 in Poly HD from ZRP.


Okay, due to peer pressure (Ben) and a slow-ish work day, I've done some pricing on i.materialise...

That same Foe Gokin Gin Gin fist is $16 in polyamide from i.m, and it's actually $13 in a material called Prime Grey that they say has super-smooth surface finish, slightly better resolution, and just as high strength. I can dig it. I just ordered one in Prime Grey ($15 shipping to the US...yuck). Will report back on quality when it arrives.

For some bizarre reason, the Baby Gin Gin MUSCLE model keeps coming out with fucked up dimensions (the file's in inches, but on their side, it comes out microscopic whether I select inches or mm). I've got a call into their Support team now. Will report back on that later.

In the meantime, I tried the AshuraShine MUSCLE model: in i.m's "High Detail Resin" (Objet), it's $67. It's only $33 in Shapeways' 3D Systems hi-res polymer. My guess, therefore, is that the Baby GG MUSCLE will be around $40 (a hair cheaper than ZoomRP).

So my gut feeling is that for hi-res stuff, you're still gonna want to go with Shapeshit's 3D Systems hi-res shit (unless there's bad news about THAT, too, Tom...). For durable, production-level stuff, i.m's Prime Grey may be what we've been looking for...
Sanjeev (Admin)
Huh...I think I found the problem with Baby Gin Gin on i.materialise: even though they give you an option to upload in inches, it seems to render everything in mm. So my 1.8" figure appeared on the page as .07" (that's 1.8mm)! Fortunately, you can just scale on the fly...so a boost of 2540% and we were off and running...

So, here's the final tally: $20 in hi-res 3D Systems from Shapeways; $46 in PolyJet HD Blue from ZoomRP; and it's $67 in i.materialise's Objet high detail resin. [Note: i.m gave me the same price for both AshuraShine and Baby GG...so it's not simply a function of print volume.]

I'd honestly have to give i.m's Objet HD resin a shot before setting in stone whether to go with Shapeways or not. Based purely on price, Shapeways seems like a no-brainer...but from a customer service perspective, Shapeways is the bottom of the fucking barrel...so I'm inclined to give i.m the benefit of the doubt...
B00
Let me know how that Prime gray turns out. I need to do some test ordering from zoomRP and I.M.. I have an awesome figure I'd like to try out.

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Anonymous User
You guys should check out quickparts they have pretty much every type of mfg technique and a wide variety of materials for each. Instant quoting and pick your lead time/price all available through their website. I have used them a few times for work related project and for this type of stuff I really have no idea how the pricing will compare. Be prepared to get a phone call about 5 minutes after you sign up. (during business hours at least)
B00
Cool, I'll check em out. Thanks man.

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Sanjeev (Admin)
I've never tried Quickparts, though I think you mentioned them to me before, Dan.

Incidentally, forget Sculpteo. I just stumbled across their website because they kinda specialize in polyamide (SLS). So I registered and uploaded Gin Gin's left fist. They want $51 for it. Fuggin' hell.
Hello guys.
I jump a bit in this topic since it seems that we've all suffer the same with Shapeways.
Well, for my personnal experience, it was just a huge nightmare. I've try several print technic with them and each time it was a gamble. I've done some prints in Objet and the first one where perfect then they've f... up on one order and told me that the result was ok for them and it was me who had too high expectations with their printer....Since the first two print where ok, then why the third one was clearly not ok.
Beside huge delays and unreliable quality. I've decide to swith with I.Materilise and I'm a happy guy wince then. My first shock was when I've order the same model Shapeways screwed, well, there was a tiny stickers on each part with: "quality check by Steeve" they have some guy to control every part, and if their not ok they reprint it. This is just priceless.
Also, they have a great support team, I've exchange tons of mail with them for a huge project I'm currently working on and they've really helped me, fine tuning some of my pieces to optimize the print. Also here, priceless.
Of course you can just upload you files there, but you can easily contact them for special request.
Other than that, their HQ are just 30 minutes drive from my office so when I have print ready I can go there to pick it up and check directly with their team about my prints.

It can seems like I have some share in that company but it's so good working with people that actually know what they are doing.

As for their materials, well, the detailed resin is made by a Connex printer from Objet. It's pretty detailed and you can easily sand it to have super smooth surface.
The paintable resin is like an epoxy resin, it's detailed also, maybe a tiny less than objet but this material is really excellent. You can easily sand it to get smooth detail also. You probably see a bit more the print layers than on the Objet print.
One cool thing with that material is that if you order it painted, well it's more expensive but they sand it themselve and you get something that is just perfect and ready to use for molds or display.
They told me that the Prime Gray is very close to the FUD from shapeways, I haven't test it yet because from what I've understand it's the same technic as the paintable resin, and I've see some pict of a frog and you see the print layers on that one, of course it's hard to judge since I have no idea how big is that little frog. But one of their guy told me that it was quite smooth. I'm going to check that soon I think.
Well for the other materials, I've try the clear resin and it's like the paintable resin, same machine, same resolution, but they sand it for you and put a varnish so that it's crystal clear.
As for price, it's of course more expensive than Shapeways but for me, support and quality control is really a plus.
Don't hesitate to shoot some questions since I've work with them a few times.

Oh and great work on the modeling of those weapons, nice design and modeling skills. I need to dig a bit more that part of the forum, there's some great stuff going on here :))

Little Edit: just wanted to say that until now the best resoltion I've test is the FUD, I've quickly check again you guns and they're pretty small compare to what I'm doing. Prime gray might be a good stuff for you, and the good news is that it's coming in grey already so for your weapons it could be cool. Plastic look straight out of the printer :))



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2012 06:38PM by mikenozon.
Sanjeev (Admin)
Mike! Great to see you posting here, man! I know TFs probably aren't your thing, but this thread seems to be the de facto 3D printing thread on the board.

It's great to hear that you've had nothing but good experiences with i.materialise. Their prices may be quite a bit higher than Shapeways, but I've just about had it with their misleading business practices, piss poor customer service, slow overall service, and inconsistent quality. At this point, I'd just rather pay a lot more for a legit company behaving as a legit company should...not like a bunch of fucking hippies pretending to be business people.

Heh, before you posted, Mike, I was just gonna drop a little update of my own. Just a little while ago, I e-mailed Shitways to complain about an order I'd placed 6 weeks ago that I still haven't gotten. SIX WEEKS. Remember that promise of shipment within ten business days? Ha. Whatever.

In the meantime, I got an e-mail back from i.m support about that website bug: turns out it's a known issue and that scaling models in inches up by 2540% is all you have to do. The guy even offered to have me e-mail the model directly to him so that he could personally review the model for printing. This makes me happy. So far, so good.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback on the specific materials you mentioned, Mike. I think Prime Gray is the most exciting offering because it seems pretty affordable while offering very high resolution and the strength of polyamide. I really hope that ends up being true! The clear resin is probably perfect for medium-sized projects where you need something glossy to serve as a master pattern for mold-making. I'm guessing it's too expensive for really big projects though...and small, detailed projects may not really benefit from the varnish (and it may even hurt the finer details).
You're welcome Sanjeev.

Hey, there's robots, there's 3D, there's 3D print, seems like a good place to post :))
Really curious about the Prime Grey, don't hesitate to shoot picts when you have something.
I know that with the scale tool on their website I had some weird stuff going on, like I was quoting and the scale of price was in synch with the scale of price and then it suddenly have jump in price with no reason, like 120% was ok then 121% was like 150% more expensive. Weird stuff so it's always better to shoot stuff at the proper size.

I have to say that since I'm doing mainly big pieces, the resolution of their stuff is ok for me, I want something with a smooth finish after sanding. So maybe for tiny stuff like guns for TF toys it's not that clean. Well probably more clean than what Shapeways is doing right now hahahahaha.
I've never had the impression that the WSF was something for me, that grainy look feels too porous.

One of the things I really would like to test one day is the new ABS like they've done for the Connex 500. With that printer resolution, having something close to ABS could be really sweet. Smooth, solid and with a real feel of plastic.
B00
mikenozon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Little Edit: just wanted to say that until now the
> best resoltion I've test is the FUD, I've quickly
> check again you guns and they're pretty small
> compare to what I'm doing. Prime gray might be a
> good stuff for you, and the good news is that it's
> coming in grey already so for your weapons it
> could be cool. Plastic look straight out of the
> printer :))

Nice to meet you, thanks for info man. I'm loving the look of the prime grey, the minimum wall thickness is 1mm so there will be some work on my models. There are a few spots that are around .75-.85mm. The one good thing about shapeways is that they let you get away with some rather thin spots. The blade model for my gun/sword would look awesome in that clear/yellow resin, but again min. wall thickness is 1mm. The blade was designed specifically for Shapeways FUD (min. wall is .3mm!) so there are some thinner areas especially around the axle supports. I'm going to email them and see what they recommend doing. Many of my models will probly need some revisions. But that's not really bad thing.

I'm going to place an order with ZoomRP tomorrow and see what their ploy jet is like, I haven't ordered a print of the Ripper yet and I'd love to see DX Wheeljack holding that monstrosity.

There's also this: The Distant Thunder Project Group (the same guys who made the transforming drone for the DX Thunderwing) asked me to make a replacement cannon for the TF Prime: Voyager Megatron. The current prototype is on order with Shapeways in FUD. We want to test the part fit and see if it works with Megatron as planned, but after that we want the cannon made in better looking, better printed materials. Seems like a perfect job for i.M.









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Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2012 05:23PM by B00.
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Sanjeev (Admin)
Yup...will definitely post *plenty* of pics of that Prime Gray. I wanna focus on how it compares to Shapeways' polished polyamide. I know you never liked polyamide, Mike, but for "toy-grade" strength (and price), it can't be beat! The polish option really made the surface finish acceptable. Of course, all of that may be out the door since Tom's reporting that their polyamide quality has dropped dramatically. [But ultimately, if Prime Gray can really achieve close to the strength of polyamide, close to the resolution/surface finish of 3D Systems, AND still be very affordable, we may have a winner!]

And as for the pricing on i.materialise, yes, I saw the same sort of thing, Mike: they obviously don't charge by the actual model volume, so it's a bit hard to predict what your model will cost. They seem to price things based on an envelope (overall model size) that your model falls into. I think this makes sense because printing a model isn't just about pushing a button, and taking the finished product out the next morning. There's a great deal of post-print clean up that's required. And that varies widely from machine to machine (material to material) and based on the complexity (NOT volume) of your geometry.

Anyway, speaking of pricing, I just noted that the Baby Gin Gin model is $15.50 in Prime Gray from i.m (and like I said before, $67 in high detail resin), $15.40 in White Detail (Objet) from Shapeways (and $20 for 3D Systems), and $45 in PolyJet Blue HD from ZoomRP. The PolyJet Blue HD is actually ZoomRP's cheapest option. :/ SLS, SLA, and ABS were all about $5-15 more. Ouch.

Oh, and regarding i.m's ABS, it's also really expensive ($66 for Baby GG), and even though its strength is obviously fantastic, its resolution isn't nearly as high as what they say about Prime Gray.

So for high-detail prints, with no regard for strength, Shapeways 3D Systems still seems like the best option...again, unless i.m's Prime Gray can really compete with it. Alternatively, if ZRP's PolyJet HD really does blow away 3D Systems in terms of resolution (like my prototyper's EnvisionTEC prints!), then that would be the best choice. Tom, it'll really be interesting to see how PolyJet compares when you get your order!

Heh...y'know, in the end, maybe it just makes sense to order a print of one particular model in ALL of these materials and just do a head-to-head comparison!

Anyway holy hell, Tom! Is that an LED assembly I see??? Wild! You rock, man!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2012 01:06PM by Sanjeev.
B00
Quote
sanjeev
Heh...y'know, in the end, maybe it just makes sense to order a print of one particular model in ALL of these materials and just do a head-to-head comparison!

Anyway holy hell, Tom! Is that an LED assembly I see??? Wild! You rock, man!

I think Zoom lets you order a sample kit of their materials, I'll have to double check that.

Yeah, the cannon will have a 25,000 cmd LED! I got the LEDs already and damn are they bright! I hope the cannon builds right should be awesome when finished.

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Well, I remember they had some sample kit at Shapeways too but never ordered one. I think I will order one of my models with different printer just to be sure to spot difference correctly, I prefer to judge on a model that I know and where I can spot the weakness. The super tiny Garada will be a good test for that, lots of details and all that.

There's one thing I didn't mention about I.M. paintable resin is that for large models, when it's build hollow, they create a little hole sometimes in your model. That's because of the technique they use. It's basically a big bath of liquid epoxy and the lazers are tracing on the surface, then the ground level goes down and again, so the surface level of the liquid stay the same but the ground floor goes down. So you need to have this little hole to let the liquid flow everywhere in order to be able to print correctly. If it's plain no problem but for larger pieces, sometimes they intercept your model and create wall surface to make it hollow. I guess it's something that's discuss with their support and they contact you for that. Well, in my case I was always in touch with them since it was a "special order" and we've done lots of exchange to optimize the whole model.

Oh and as for calculating the price, from what I've understand in a mail exchange, they try to estimate the occupation time of the machine to create your price, and not the volume. So yes it might be something like a bounding box and orientation can probably have some impact.
Here again when I was dealing with them for my big model, they've send me some images of each piece to show me the orientation they've choose and check with me if I was happy and ok with that, we've discuss a few points and done some changes regarding this.

So you see that at one point they're really open, and solve problems for you and it's a real support, not like the other guys from Shapeways where you seem to know more about 3D print than 99% of the people working there.

And Yes, that canon with a LED looks great. And I have to say that I really like the render look of you clear plastic. What do you use to model and render?
B00
mikenozon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And Yes, that canon with a LED looks great. And I
> have to say that I really like the render look of
> you clear plastic. What do you use to model and
> render?

I use 3d studio max for both modeling and rendering. Max comes with mental ray built in, its a good rendering engine, but it takes too much work to get results sometimes.

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Sanjeev (Admin)
I’m not into sample kits. A bunch of bricks really doesn’t tell you much about resolution. Like Mike said, I’m more inclined to print *my own model* in different materials because I’m intimately familiar with the geometry.

Anyway, again, that gun-sword is lovely, Tom. I really hope you have it designed so that the light not only makes the cannon barrel light up, but it also pipes along the sword blades!

Mike, thanks for the extra info about the paintable resin from i.m…and also about their pricing. I wonder…do they offer any level of post-print clean up work? The reason I ask is because Shapeways is now doing polished alumide, along with their polished polyamide. I haven’t handled any of it yet, but I can definitely see having super-smooth alumide being really useful for anyone doing vulcanized rubber molding. If i.materialise can do something similar, that’d be great. I should ask ‘em about it…

mikenozon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So you see that at one point they're really open,
> and solve problems for you and it's a real
> support, not like the other guys from Shapeways
> where you seem to know more about 3D print than
> 99% of the people working there.

^^ I just love this quote! :D



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/08/2012 11:06AM by Sanjeev.
B00
Quote
sanjeev
Anyway, again, that gun-sword is lovely, Tom. I really hope you have it designed so that the light not only makes the cannon barrel light up, but it also pipes along the sword blades!

The gun/sword doesn't light up sadly, it's the Megatron cannon that has the light up gimmick. BTW, the prototype for the Megatron Cannon arrived. Fortunately shapeways is still doing right by their FUD material.

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Sanjeev (Admin)
B00 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fortunately shapeways is still doing
> right by their FUD material.

Heh...well, not to piss in your Cheerios, but I wouldn't be so sure! Both Mike and I have experienced significantly different results based purely on the orientation of the model during print. And guess what! You have ZERO control over the print orientation. And awesomely, neither does Shapeways!

Seriously ...it's like a bad joke.
B00
You can see pics of the prototype here, TFW2005, you'll probly need a TFW account to view the thread. I'll mirror some images later tonight.

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Sanjeev (Admin)
(No need for an account) That's killer, Tom! Not a fan of that Megatron toy, but that accessory really makes it!
Looks great, but I'm curious as to what the final plan for production is... resin casting? Offered as kits or finished assemblies? I don't know how Distant Thunder operates... did the Thunderwing drone come out yet?

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B00
Thanks guys.

We're looking in all kinds of options for the final product. ThinkTank at TFW is heading up the whole project, and he's talking with a few recast guys, I'll talk to Josh B. when he has some free time off work. It would be awesome to offer this as a fully made finished plastic toy. Not sure what stage the drone is at, I'm not part of that project, but I'll ask.

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Looks great, the light seems a bit over powerfull for it, but it's so great to be able to add feature like that.
I guess that with a few hours of sanding it will be ready for making molds out of that and cast it in resin. I've test a few resin lately and I had great result with a clear one that you can simply color with or any other dye to get the other colors.

Hey I've almost forgot about Mental Ray, I've use it for a long time at work but it was not open enough and too slow for us and we've drop it. But for personal use it shoot decent result for what we've doing here.

Nice work again.
B00
mikenozon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Looks great, the light seems a bit over powerfull
> for it, but it's so great to be able to add
> feature like that.
> I guess that with a few hours of sanding it will
> be ready for making molds out of that and cast it
> in resin. I've test a few resin lately and I had
> great result with a clear one that you can simply
> color with or any other dye to get the other
> colors.
>
> Hey I've almost forgot about Mental Ray, I've use
> it for a long time at work but it was not open
> enough and too slow for us and we've drop it. But
> for personal use it shoot decent result for what
> we've doing here.
>
> Nice work again.

Thanks man, hopefully when the parts are cast in their opaque and transparent colors, there won't be that light bleed.

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So, these aren't a Transformer accessory, but these are the first test-prints I've received of something I modeled from Shapeways. All three are in WSF Polished. The surface texture is actually pretty nice, and the material feels better than the last print I received about a year ago, but I had some sink-mark on the largest (and most expensive) print around the areas that I hollowed out to save material. I'm going to send pics of the issues to Shapeways, because the quality of that largest print is totally unacceptable.









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whoa. These are pretty darn cool!

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B00
Awesome design man, and that material looks pretty good polished. Looks like the material collapsed pretty bad in a few spots, I really don't care for the new WSF.

I got my crusader parts today. It looks like shit.

The design works as planned, and I used 18 gauge solid strand wire for the pins.







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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2012 08:52PM by B00.
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Anonymous User
The detail of the WSF material has definitely changed since they swapped their colors around.
Sanjeev (Admin)
Damn, Tom...

It's like your gun and Ben's robutt are made of *totally* different materials. I don't get it.

As for the sink holes, Tom, on your gun near the top of this page, where the top surface is collapsed...is that gun hollow or solid? I'm beginning to wonder if it's something where hollow polyamide structures are coming out porked.

I recently got a Shapeways order that had been placed almost TWO months ago...and surprisingly all the parts looked pretty good. That said, all the (polished) polyamide parts were solid, not hollow. I also got some polished alumide parts, too. They definitely feel WORLDS smoother than the old stuff (though far from perfect). I'm thinking of sending them to my metal caster to see how they hold up.

Anyway, nice robot, Ben. Keep posting more of your models as they evolve!

In other news, I'm awaiting my first i.materialise order soon. I probably shoulda ordered more stuff given how much they charge for shipping (~$15 to the US), but I only got me Gin Gin fist made of Prime Gray. I'm excited to see how it compares to polished polyamide in terms of surface finish, detail/resolution, and obviously strength. Will post pics...
B00
Quote
sanjeev
As for the sink holes, Tom, on your gun near the top of this page, where the top surface is collapsed...is that gun hollow or solid? I'm beginning to wonder if it's something where hollow polyamide structures are coming out porked.

No. The model I made was solid, I don't know if shapeways hollowed it out for some reason.

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Sanjeev (Admin)
Then...I have no explanations for this bullshit...

Totally bizarre.
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