Shape my Ways

Posted by B00 
B00
As far as cheap low res goes I'm eagerly awaiting my Mojo prints. I'm going to shoot a message to 3D systems and see if I cant get a few parts printed on a projet 1000. My group is pretty interested in getting an "in house" printer.

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Sanjeev (Admin)
Yeah, in-house is most definitely the long-term way to go for larger scale projects. I really hope it works out for you guys. Hell, then maybe YOU can do my piddly-little one-off prototypes for me! ;)

Anyway, I heard back from i.m. The news is mixed. First, the bad: the pricing ain't no lie: Gin Gin arms will be $69, not $39 per set. And further, I asked about resin casting services, and the dude told me that it's somewhat pricey because they require fairly large runs of parts...and I'm just not sure I can commit like that. The manufacture-on-demand nature of 3D printing (with no start-up costs like with molding) is what makes that business model worth it to me.

The one last chance--which I totally forgot to ask about the other day, but will do so now--is making each arm set a single part by designing a sprue. Shouldn't be too tough since the tree can attach to surfaces hidden after assembly. I'm gonna ask them how best to arrange the parts to make it as cheap as possible. As usual, I'll report back what I find.

Oh, and I got my shipping notice from Moddler. Should have my shit by Friday or Saturday. At the very least, at least these guys are MAD quick.
B00
Yeah, Moddler is as fast as zoom, but cheaper! I hope the material and print quality isn't shit. Their portfolio looks damn nice, so I'm optimistic. If all else fails I'll bite the bullet and send some stuff to PCS. I got a little figure I'm working on that I'd like to have printed with them.

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Sanjeev (Admin)
Well.

It's official: i.materialise is officially out. I got word back from their support guy that they CAN'T do sprues. Well...more like they don't want to. And that's fair seeing as how multiple "real" solids connected by a flimsy tree still need at least as much clean-up work as all those solids separately.

The one suggestion they made was to design the sprue and use polyamide instead of Prime Gray. Makes sense because Prime Gray is SLA, which requires all that clean-up, right? Well, polyamide is obviously SLS, which requires essentially NO clean-up since the powder, itself, acts as its own support material.

The problem is that they charge a fuck-ton for polyamide. Even without actually designing the tree, I arranged all my parts in as small a bounding box as possible and uploaded it for a price-check. $53.58...again, versus Shitshape's $31.51 polished. I just can't take that big a hit.

Anyone else got any ideas for a cheap polyamide printing house? Or someone who offers a high-strength SLA photopolymer?

Looks like I'm gonna have to crawl back to Shapeways. Shameful. Shameways...
B00
I got my parts from Moddler today. Awesome stuff. The detail is great, the strength is great, it's got some flex to it too. There are some draw backs. They are more costly then Shapeways, and can't do different materials. But the material I got (vero white) is pretty shiny on the sides that didnt touch the support material, it will need some polish and sanding. But overall, love these guys.



In hand the parts feel very smooth, it's much better than that shit I got from zoom.

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2012 03:33PM by B00.
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Sanjeev (Admin)
Sorry for the late reply. I actually got my parts from Moddler on Friday as well. They're definitely nice, but it IS Vero White. Essentially, it's the same as Shapeways' "White Detail" material...at it's best. I've gotten plenty of Objet parts from Shapeways, and just like other offerings of theirs, the quality is kinda all over the place. Very little consistency.

But the biggest thing is price: do you want to pay more for ideal Objet prints from Moddler than, say, 3D Systems prints from Shapeways (which offer better strength and detail anyway...on a good day)?
B00
I know its the same material, but its so much better quality and with a quick turn around. They also allow for a .5mm wall thickness on their Vero White. Shapeways will only allow 1mm. For me the quality and speed are worth a little extra, but your right the FUD at Shapeways is the most affordable hi-res print around, if you can stand the Shapeways crew. The XHD at PCS is the ultimate hi-res solution, but you could buy a small island for that kinda of money.

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Sanjeev (Admin)
B00 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...The XHD at PCS is the ultimate
> hi-res solution, but you could buy a small island
> for that kinda of money.


Oh? I may have missed it, but did you actually get prints from them or anything?

And I dunno man: my local guy out here with the EnvisionTEC machine might have PCS beat! ;)
B00
I didn;t get anything printed from PCS, but I did play with thier part samples. They had a tiny ass tank tread that was printed as one part. All the treads moved and the walls were aroun 2.5mm. The XHD layer thickness is .05mm.

What is the layer thickness on the envision?

There's also this [3dprinting.com] if it gets funded the estimated cost would be about $2,000 for a unit.

Here's some interesting reading [www.additive3d.com]

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2012 07:37PM by B00.
Sanjeev (Admin)
"Layer thickness" isn't even a meaningful statistic when it comes to the REAL high-end shit out there. I asked what the "tolerances" were when my prototyper was telling me about the machine. He just laughed and said "don't worry about it".

Remember, this was the machine that printed the pink Baby Gin Gin I had posted on my blog:



And here's a hi res image of that print next to a 3D Systems print (center) and a Vero White print (left). It's dead-nuts perfect.



Of course, it also costs literally ten times more than 3D Systems from Shapeways! :P

Anyway, those links are cool, Tom. The MiiCraft machine is especially exciting if it can really remain at that pricepoint.
B00
Shit that print looks amazing. I have a project that I'm getting ready to finish up and I'd love to have a super high quality print like that.

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B00
Shit this guy too forever to make! I'm gonna test the hell outa this guy before making it available. But hell's my first fully custom toy Transformer. He will be legend/legion size so not very big. But should be a fun little figure.

BlockHead!!


BlockHead_Bot by t.birge, on Flickr


BlockHead_Car by t.birge, on Flickr


Blockhead_Parts by t.birge, on Flickr

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Sanjeev (Admin)
That's awesome, Tom! I love it. Looks satisfyingly complex, but still fun...and most importantly, it's ALL YOU!

So the next question is obviously "what now"? Where are you gonna print it, and in what material(s)?
Sanjeev (Admin)
Oh, and because it deserves double-posting, here's a write-up on Mike's Garada K7...just in case anyone missed it in the vintage thread. Fan-fucking-tastic!
B00
I'd love to get a sweet print like your. I know it would cost me though. I have a feeling shapeways wouldn't be the way to go with this guy.

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Hey Tom, great work on that TF, really impressive. I really love the fact that you've put some angles in the base of his feet to have a more dynamic pose, really nice detail.

Some some minor suggestions if I may: I would have make some holes for the lights to be able to place clear part behind, so the light are not just painted on the front part, same for the windshield and the side windows. But it's of course maybe not TF accurate. I'm not an expert at all with this toy line.

And you should put all the pivot point of everypiece at the right place to do a little animation rig and make a transformation movie, that would be great.

Anyway, great great work and you need to print that in BIIIIGGGGG
Sanjeev (Admin)
mikenozon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some some minor suggestions if I may: I would have
> make some holes for the lights to be able to place
> clear part behind, so the light are not just
> painted on the front part, same for the windshield
> and the side windows.

This is a great idea...the only problem is that printing clear parts can be hit or miss. I've gotten 3D Systems prints from Shapeways that have turned piss-yellow as soon as UV hits 'em. They definitely dimensionally stable, but color is another thing...

That said, all my recent 3D Systems prints have kept their clarity for the most part...so maybe I just got a pee-lemon before. Dunno. But then again, only my 3D Systems stuff that came with super-smooth surfaces really appear translucent. Others of the same model have come more "hairy"...which leaves them looking a lot milkier.

> Anyway, great great work and you need to print
> that in BIIIIGGGGG

Haha...you and Jumbos, man!
B00
Thanks guys. I'm going to move forward on a cheap WSF print first. I just want to make sure everything is going to work right before spending lots of money on a high-end print. If all goes well, I'll start working on the next design. I have a few of these guys on the drawing board.

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Really looking forward to seeing this in the real world. I like seeing things like this that (as far as I know) avoid the whole IP issue. It's an original transforming toy that's not necessarily intended to represent another character. I'm apparently one of the few that doesn't need supporting media for a toy to be interesting to me.

More serious than thou
[www.newscientist.com]

-Paul Segal

"Oh, the anger is never far, never far." -SteveH
I wonder what the price differences are between getting a weapon 3D-printed and the same item on the black market. If the latter is more expensive, expect companies to ban 3D-printed weapon parts. They wouldn't want to be liable for any deaths afterall.

--
SilhouetteFormula.Net
Sanjeev (Admin)
An AR-15 receiver can range anywhere from $300 to $600...but that 3D printed part's gotta be a fuckload more. But, of course, what happens the day when it's NOT "a fuckload more". And with the rise of home 3D printing, how could one regulate what you print?

Anyhoo...I haven't posted any updates on my shit to this thread in a while...because apparently my latest effort with i.materialise is stuck in customs! Or something. Well, i.m shipped a set of polyamide Gin Gin arms via UPS...and when I go to their tracking website, it says that the package arrived in Philly from Germany and has been "submitted to Clearing Agency"...and that it's been there since the 18th. What the fuck?
B00
Finished this guy, still ave some work to do on his accessories, once those are done I'll be grinding on the Metroid stuff.


Drop shot render by t.birge, on Flickr


Drop shot render 2 by t.birge, on Flickr


Drop shot render 3 by t.birge, on Flickr


Drop shot render 4 by t.birge, on Flickr


Drop shot render 5 by t.birge, on Flickr

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2012 01:57AM by B00.
Sanjeev (Admin)
Gods damn, kid...you are no joke! =)

I know it's been a minute since I've posted any 3D printing news, but honestly, not a ton is going on right now. The biggest thing, I think, is that I'm pretty sure the door is closed to i.materialise. I finally got my sample Gin Gin arms a couple weeks ago...and they're kinda meh. They were done in polyamide, but the surface quality wasn't particularly great. It's interesting because they must use totally different hardware from Shapeways because the arms felt so different...but at the end of the day, polished polyamide from Shapeways is cheaper and has better surface quality. I have yet to see the weird "sink holes" you and Ben saw, so I'm just gonna cross my fingers and go with them for now.

Looks like I'm also doing Gin Gin's head in polished polyamide. I've ordered a new set of the latest arm revisions and the head, so I'll post pics when they arrive. And maybe I'll even get them painted someday... :P
B00
Sorry to here about I.m. they seemed promising until that "no multi part stl" thing. My parts for the car figure will be here tomorrow. Not sure how its going to go down, but in theory he works.

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Sanjeev (Admin)
Haha...in theory, it always works! Is he getting done in polyamide or 3D Systems or what? Lots of joints/moving parts, so I'm guessing that polyamide might be the best in the long run...IF you're printing-for-production. If you're casting, then 3D Systems is obviously the way to go.

Anyway, yeah, i.m is still a great company because they're so knowledgeable and helpful...it's just the price thing. And ultimately, there IS a way around that multi-part STL issue...*if* you're printing in polyamide. I pinned the parts together (along inconspicuous surfaces) with 1mm-thick rods. Worked like a charm:





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B00
He's made in polyamide (that's a Z-corp machine right?). The print quality was some of the best I have ever recived from shapeways, the layering looks like shit but at least all the surfaces were solid. Nothing was warped sunk deformed or collapsed.









The updated forum cuts images off.

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Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2012 03:38PM by B00.
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MSW
That is SO cool! I'm completely jealous of your discipline in art and patience with 3D software.
Sanjeev (Admin)
Yeah, I'm pretty certain Z Corp makes some sort of powder-based SLS printer, but I don't know if *all* SLS (powder) machines are technically "polyamide", y'know? I thought that "polyamide" sorta just referred to that particular powder used by SLS machines. Anyway, I guess there are a LOT of SLS machines on the market. Obviously Shapeways has theirs, and i.materialise has two totally different ones, which seem different from the Shapeways machine (based on the couple parts I got from them).

Anyway, that print looks great! Glad to hear there were no glaring flaws. I got some polished polyamide stuff from Shapeways the other day, and they look perfect.

As for the images, yeah, they're definitely cut-off. I try to limit my attachments to 575 px wide...seems fine that way.
I started my own thread in the OT, but I figured I oughta post a pic here as well, since this is where all the cool kids post...



Things are finally happening.

And BOO, I cannot even wrap my head around the skill required to design a transforming figure that prints and still works. Bra-fucking-vo.

Introducing Prometheus Rising Studio.
[prometheusrising.net]
I make 3D printed mecha action figures.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/24/2012 01:57PM by Prometheum5.
B00
Your figure fucking owns! It looks great in WSF+P. Any problems with mysterious sinking or collapsing.

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Sanjeev (Admin)
Nice, Ben!

I wanna see this design evolve...
B00 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your figure fucking owns! It looks great in WSF+P.
> Any problems with mysterious sinking or
> collapsing.


None, whatsoever. I've gotten a couple different largish (3") prints recently that were flawless. The models were not hollow, though, so it's possible that has some part in it.

Introducing Prometheus Rising Studio.
[prometheusrising.net]
I make 3D printed mecha action figures.
Guess I'd have to see how some of these look when painted up. I'm fairly disappointed by the print quality I see in the pics of just about everything that gets posted here. The designs are fantastic, but what's coming back not so much. Is it just that camera flashes really highlight all the little flaws that you really can't see when you have one in hand?

More serious than thou
B00
fujikuro Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Guess I'd have to see how some of these look when
> painted up. I'm fairly disappointed by the print
> quality I see in the pics of just about everything
> that gets posted here. The designs are fantastic,
> but what's coming back not so much. Is it just
> that camera flashes really highlight all the
> little flaws that you really can't see when you
> have one in hand?

The quality is unfortunate. But considering that WSF is so cheap I'm willing to live with it... for now. As the 3D printing boom continues to grow I think we're going to seem some pretty affordable equipment with high performance.

Case in point. Here's a HOME-BREW DLP Printer!! [3dhomemade.blogspot.com]

Dont know if I posted this guy before, but damn it dose little things good! [www.asiga.com]

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2012 11:42AM by B00.
Sanjeev (Admin)
Well, I'm not sure how fair it is to say that the quality sucks--we're talking about ONE particular application of ONE particular technology: selective laser-sintered polyamide...as marketed by Shapeshit.

Tom, I really think you'll get visibly better results if you go with their "polished" option. Again, that's what I'm using with Gin Gin's arms...and I'm pretty satisfied with it for production stuff.

But getting back to Matt's point, there ARE other 3D printing technologies out there that make MUCH nicer prints. Obviously, 3D Systems' stereolithography is one of the highest quality systems out there, but it costs a lot more than SLS and the finished parts aren't nearly as strong.

It all depends on what you're trying to make.
B00
I was talking about the visual quality of WSF. I wasn't implying that the material was garbage. I'd love to get BlockHead printed in a higher quality material and now I know that his design works I can feel confident in that purchase.

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B00
Massive artillary cannon unit system!! M.A.r.C.U.S. Yes its a Borderlands reference.


Ion Centrifuge Cannon closed by t.birge, on Flickr


Ion Centrifuge Cannon tri-pod by t.birge, on Flickr


Ion Centrifuge Cannon open by t.birge, on Flickr


Ion Centrifuge Cannon parts by t.birge, on Flickr

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Sanjeev (Admin)
You're a friggin' maniac, Tom. I fucking love it! Don't ever stop doing what you're doing! ;)
I know I haven't been around here in a whole, but shit's been buuuuuuuusy. That said, there's still things to show.



I haven't gotten any new models into the computer yet, but the Bounce Tortoise has taken an interesting turn. Even though I've been happy with my prints from both Shapeways and i.materalise, I hate waiting. Instead, I decided it was time to own the means of production, and this is the first trial result.



After being blown away by all of the incredible tech at MakerFaire NYC, I finally took the plunge and purchased an UP! Mini from UP3D USA using a coupon I received at MakerFaire. It showed up yesterday and worked like a charm right out of the box. I'll do a proper blog post about the printer and my experiences so far when I get some time in the near future...

Introducing Prometheus Rising Studio.
[prometheusrising.net]
I make 3D printed mecha action figures.
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