[DESIGNER VINYLS] Hot or Not?

Posted by Sanjeev 
Lucky for you, Peter, we have these nifty datafiles. ;)

[toyboxdx.com]

Wood produced 2 different sized Robot Red Baron vinyls with nifty little lenticular inserts into a clear chest. Lurvely little fellas.

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[pgaijin.blogspot.com]
Sanjeev Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Roger Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Come on. This could be the stupidest thing
> you've
> > ever written on this BBS.
>
> Okay.

Now that's how to handle constructive criticism.

;p
Sanjeev Wrote:
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> Hikaru of Bounty Hunter was the first designer
> vinyl maker. Is he a "designer"? Well, he was designing clothes at the time.

Usually people who design clothes are trained designers, so I would say yes he is a designer, he designs for a living.

>Now does Mori of Real x Head have a degree in design?

I really don't know.

> Was he doing design work before making his toy line?

Again, I don't know.

> What about Kiyoka? Have you asked them?

I haven't. Have you?

> I don't know, but I think your distinction is
> dubious.

Well you can call whoever you want a designer, just like you can call whoever you want a doctor or an engineer too. See my point here?

> > > Next, how do you know that contemporary
> > > (non-character) vinyl doesn't appeal to "the
> > > hardcore toy crowd" (that is ostensibly into
> > > kaiju)?
> >
> > Because nobody posts pictures of it in toy
> forums.
>
> Is that not the point of this thread?

Well it might be the intended point, but again I was just making the observation that most of what gets posted in toy forums termed as designer vinyl is usually more or less action figures and not so much the type of stuff that began the coining of the term "designer vinyl" to begin with. It's not bad, it's just what toy enthusiasts seem to gravitate to.

>There's a whole toy forum called skullbrain that's devoted
> to designer vinyl and modern character kaiju
> vinyl. There's a decent amount of overlap.

That's great. Seriously. Sounds like skullbrain is helping to up the standards of kaiju and other plastic figure efforts.

> What I'm saying is that the designer non-character
> stuff is what's commanding huge prices right now
> (and has been for a while)...while the M1's and
> Marmit's are lukewarm in the aftermarket.

I think it's because they are toys, or at least that's the general perception, not so much "objets d'arte" or "objets d'design" as it were because everyone know that they make renditions of Godzilla, Baltan, etc. and in a very serious way. These companies are not doing a play off of these characters or some tongue in cheek rendition like you see in designer vinyl where the designer is committed to the quality of a produced image, and not merely for the character's exemplification. I can only speak for myself, but I know I don't perceive Marmit or M1 as designer vinyl.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/12/2010 05:43PM by xiombarg.
What the fuck are you talking about?

Introducing Prometheus Rising Studio.
[prometheusrising.net]
I make 3D printed mecha action figures.
Action figures.
A few things to comment on. (I'm starting to find this thread confusing! ha ha)

Thanks for pointing out the database that contained info on "Wood" I didn't know who they were either. I'm already learning stuff.
I discovered that this cool Inspire robot toy that I thought was an original "designer" vinyl is based off of a Wood toy. I'm assuming it's from a show, but don't know what one.




I think Mori made T-Shirts before he made toys. I don't think he has any formal training as a designer, but don't know. Seems like a number of the trendy companies came into toys from something else. Gargamel did rings etc. Butanohana had illustration and necklaces etc.

There was a comment about Marmit and M1 having higher production numbers (which I think is good). In my experience some of the more "fringe" companies (trendy or not) do the small runs based on the initial demand. I know that this isn't the case across the board, but when I do a release or exclusive I tend to want to do a lower amount to reduce risk. The few larger runs that I've done that didn't sell well are hard on the business as well as storage space.
Anyway... I know some of the companies are probably trying to manufacture hype, but in several instances I think it's budget or demand.
I think people would be surprised at how few people are actually buying some of the companies that seem really hot.

Backing even further into the thread. (before I was around) I really like aspects of that NagNagNag toy. I think it's strange, don't care about whatevers stamped on the foot, and like the face and hands a LOT! I think the main thing killing that figure for me is the Coop/Mishka/whoever influences. Crazy monster+hot rod art+trendy fashion company doesn't = a good cohesive products in my mind. Those "punk" versions and this one are makeing it hard to like.

Also, how do you make pictures show in a post here. I dunnno!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/2010 09:33AM by CHRIS!.
You kids!

Action figures = intended for action and looks good as one part of the deal?

Designer Toys = intended primarily for presentation from the git'go, with some action built in as one part of the deal?
Sanjeev (Admin)
Roger Wrote:
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> Now that's how to handle constructive criticism.
>
> ;p

You're still not helping, ya bum.


xiombarg, I actually think *you* are missing the point here. As far as I can tell, you've yet to provide any even remotely objective basis for whom you call "designer" and whom you call merely a "toy enthusiast". You also haven't talked about HOW you've come to these conclusions. Like, you don't seem to know much about many of these toy makers (by the way, I've had dinner with Kiyoka, but I didn't ask him if he had an art degree). You've apparently just hear of skullbrain. And at this point, I'm guessing you don't actually collect ANY of these toys.

So...most of what you're saying sounds like ill-informed opinion.

Your doctor/engineer analogy makes no sense here. You're calling one guy a "designer" and another a "toy enthusiast" (implying one is inferior to the other)...a distinction I've NEVER heard anyone try to make before, and one that runs contrary to everything I know about these guys.

xiombarg Wrote:
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> ...I
> was just making the observation that most of what
> gets posted in toy forums termed as designer vinyl
> is usually more or less action figures and not so
> much the type of stuff that began the coining of
> the term "designer vinyl" to begin with. It's not
> bad, it's just what toy enthusiasts seem to
> gravitate to.

I believe Ben nailed it: "What the fuck are you talking about?"

Seriously. You just made that up, didn't you?

> That's great. Seriously. Sounds like skullbrain is
> helping to up the standards of kaiju and other
> plastic figure efforts.

Haahahaahahaaha!! Right...

> ...I
> can only speak for myself, but I know I don't
> perceive Marmit or M1 as designer vinyl.

Something we can agree on. But you're basically now saying that contemporary designer vinyl (non-character) is generally seen as "art", while contemporary character vinyl is generally seen as "toys". I'm not sure I buy this...
Chris,

just do

Holy shit! Inspire actually followed through with the "Curricula Machine"! I've never seen it for sale. Here's a thread a few years back where we'd discussed it:

[toyboxdx.com]

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[pgaijin.blogspot.com]
Sanjeev (Admin)
CHRIS! Wrote:
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> I discovered that this cool Inspire robot toy that
> I thought was an original "designer" vinyl is
> based off of a Wood toy. I'm assuming it's from a
> show, but don't know what one.
>
>
> [toyboxdx.com]
> ricula.jpg

Curricula Machine!

Just like the one Warren gave Regan:


CHRIS!, to embed an image, just type
[ img ] <url to picture> [ / img ]
just without all the spaces.

Yeah...this is terrible:


I dunno...IF there were no hype surrounding the N^3 figure (and none of these stupid hair or clothing versions), I'd still dislike it. But probably less so than I do now! :P
Huh. That looks like my erect penis...with less hair.

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[pgaijin.blogspot.com]
hillsy Wrote:
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> Huh. That looks like my erect penis...with less
> hair.

Oh God! ha ha

I don't know if that Curricula Machine ever did see the light of day. I think if it did it was likely a single day license as I've never actually seen one available. I don't think you can brows to it on the site anymore, I was just lucky to have bookmarked that page years ago.
Thanks for the name and info on how to add images.
The new NagNag has the usual suspects foaming at the mouth... I honestly don't think I've ever seen a less appealing toy.

Introducing Prometheus Rising Studio.
[prometheusrising.net]
I make 3D printed mecha action figures.
Sorry, that NagNagNag is so nasty and not in a good way. The original two worked as they were nods to Garamon and Frankenruge. And I agree that Coop/Mishka rode it into the ground.

M1 may not produce designer vinyl but they (like Gargamel) experiment with customs or one/offs. Gargamel did this at SDCC again and was asking up to $400 for custom paints. To me, that comes across as "designer vinyl".


xiombarg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >There's a whole toy forum called skullbrain
> that's devoted
> > to designer vinyl and modern character kaiju
> > vinyl. There's a decent amount of overlap.

Not sure what the difference is unless you are including Western in "designer vinyl" label.

> > What I'm saying is that the designer non-character
> > stuff is what's commanding huge prices right now
> > (and has been for a while)...while the M1's and
> > Marmit's are lukewarm in the aftermarket.

But designer non-character prices continue to crash.

Secret Base
RealxHead
Gargamel next?

Zollmen and NagNagNag are the current hype but I expect that to crash too.
Sanjeev Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> xiombarg, I actually think *you* are missing the
> point here. As far as I can tell, you've yet to
> provide any even remotely objective basis for whom
> you call "designer" and whom you call merely a
> "toy enthusiast". You also haven't talked about
> HOW you've come to these conclusions. Like, you
> don't seem to know much about many of these toy
> makers (by the way, I've had dinner with Kiyoka,
> but I didn't ask him if he had an art degree).
> You've apparently just hear of skullbrain. And at
> this point, I'm guessing you don't actually
> collect ANY of these toys.

Yep, you are so right. So why don't you tell us what a designer is and HOW you've come to your conclusion. And let's make sure it's objective, ok?

And Sanjeev, let's be honest here. You being a long time veteran of skullbrain, at least YOU know everything about these toys, and you have had dinner with Kiyoka, and isn't that what's really important here? Isn't that what this whole grilling process is about, to make sure that you are the man?

So ok.. I'm wrong, and you are right. Done.

> So...most of what you're saying sounds like
> ill-informed opinion.

Once again, at least you are informed.

> Your doctor/engineer analogy makes no sense here.
> You're calling one guy a "designer" and another a
> "toy enthusiast" (implying one is inferior to the
> other)...a distinction I've NEVER heard anyone try
> to make before, and one that runs contrary to
> everything I know about these guys.

It's really super complicated, so I would just think about it for a long, long time.

> Something we can agree on. But you're basically
> now saying that contemporary designer vinyl
> (non-character) is generally seen as "art", while
> contemporary character vinyl is generally seen as
> "toys". I'm not sure I buy this...

Yes, but art in the sense of Banksy, not Monet. You do know who Banksy is don't you? You should.
I ate lunch with Banksy's graffiti, once.

---------------------------------
[pgaijin.blogspot.com]
> > > What I'm saying is that the designer
> non-character
> > > stuff is what's commanding huge prices right
> now
> > > (and has been for a while)...while the M1's
> and
> > > Marmit's are lukewarm in the aftermarket.
>
> But designer non-character prices continue to
> crash.
>
> Secret Base
> RealxHead
> Gargamel next?
>
> Zollmen and NagNagNag are the current hype but I
> expect that to crash too.

There's been grumblings about the price of the SDCC Gargamel stuff. I think that bubble is in the process of bursting... I thought the price levels in general were outrageous. The new Deathra sculpt is going to be $110 in the US, and someone commented on how great that price is... guy must be on drugs.

Introducing Prometheus Rising Studio.
[prometheusrising.net]
I make 3D printed mecha action figures.
someone bring that nagnagnag-a-nagalagadingdong to the summit and we can watch it burn. thats some ugly shit right there. If it were porn it would be a mid 80s issue of Hustler's Rejects. You knowwhatimsayin?
Prometheum5 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There's been grumblings about the price of the
> SDCC Gargamel stuff. I think that bubble is in the
> process of bursting... I thought the price levels
> in general were outrageous. The new Deathra
> sculpt is going to be $110 in the US, and someone
> commented on how great that price is... guy must
> be on drugs.

I regretted bringing up price in that thread as it gave S7 a way to test the waters with pricing. I figured $110 as its a more complicated sculpt than say a Zag, but still, yeah the price sucks. But I only want one or two (if they release a black unpainted).

I don't understand the price creep on designer vinyl given the recession and lack of discretionary spending that other (non-toy) retailers are experiencing.

With designer vinyls, I still have a hard time determining what will hold its retail value and what I can pick up for less than retail in a few months.
Did they have any other Smurf vinyls at SDCC, or was it just the Gargamel?

I've been looking to add an anime accurate version to my collection, is there a pic of the SDCC version available?

-Adam
ed
yay a SB board troll is here! the party can begin.
Supersentai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did they have any other Smurf vinyls at SDCC, or
> was it just the Gargamel?
>
> I've been looking to add an anime accurate version
> to my collection, is there a pic of the SDCC
> version available?
>
> -Adam

As requested, SDCC version:


Suh-weeeeeet!

Now I see what all the buzz about vinyls has been about.

Anyway, when is that convention taking place again?


I'm just about finished with my sequinned Smurf jacket! Will get my plane tix shortly there after.

-Adam
ed
LS, you're holding out on these fine folks.

where is the secret camo edition that was released on thursday afternoon?
Sanjeev (Admin)
xiombarg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So ok.. I'm wrong, and you are right. Done.

Ah, wonderful! Isn't it great to be on the same page? Must be tiring talking out of your asshole. :P

Now...back to intelligent discussion...

See, I hear mixed responses regarding what LS is calling the "crash". Sure, there seems to be some deflation in some areas. First off, I have no clue what the Secret Base market has been doing since I don't really collect those. Regarding RxH, I know there's been a lot of collection liquidation here and there, but from what I hear from different people here and there close to Mori is that the toys are still selling (especially the cats and other smallish things). Maybe his store's getting a lot of foot-traffic leading to local sales we never hear about. As for Gargamel, who knows.

Wasn't the pricey nature of the ST Deathras simply because they were all fancy-schmancy one-offs?? A one-off for $110 is NOT bad. But then, I believe in years past, SDCC exclusive ST Zags were around $100, so $10 more? Meh.

Besides, I like the Marmit Bagun sculpt a lot better! ;)
ed
The real head market tanked. The issue with those toys is that a few collectors drove the prices up on them, and people went crazy thinking they were the hot new toy to have and the whole thing spun out of control.
Introduce the rxh minis, which added a different perspective to the frenzy, and people went more crazy. Eventually, supply surpassed demand, and surprise surprise the "market" (a term I don't like to use when discussing toys, but it does fit) took a nose dive and what were once considered hard to find are now being given away for practically little to no money.

The gargamel one offs at SDCC were around 400-500, not $110.


it's bound to happen with these toys when people who are self described "marketing geniuses" manipulate the market and hype the hell out of purportedly limited edition toys.

If anyone is interested in how to hype a toy over there, here is your successful business plan in a few simple steps.

1. Open a twitter account and start following anyone from over there, it isn't hard to figure out twitter accounts.
2. Post a small teaser photo of a toy that you plan to sell.
3. Two hours later, tell said twitter followers that they should keep an eye out on your bigcartel store for said item.
4. Post 100 toys on your bigcartel store, tell people that it's a limited run, and watch the sales pour in.

To keep the hype alive, make sure you send freebie test shots to the 3 popular "artists" that can do no wrong over there. Tell those artists that they are hard to find and limited so that they think they are special.

Then create a new vinyl, preferably something glow in the dark (sorry sanjeev), and rinse and repeat above instructions with each of said artists.

As a big aside, I am not including PK in the above statement. Paul is a true artist AND designer, and he works harder than anyone I know in this hobby to make his own creations come to life.

My next lesson is how you can take "donations" on a non profit entrepreneur website to get your toy made.
Sanjeev Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now...back to intelligent discussion...
>
> See, I hear mixed responses regarding what LS is
> calling the "crash". Sure, there seems to be some
> deflation in some areas. First off, I have no clue
> what the Secret Base market has been doing since I
> don't really collect those. Regarding RxH, I know
> there's been a lot of collection liquidation here
> and there, but from what I hear from different
> people here and there close to Mori is that the
> toys are still selling (especially the cats and
> other smallish things). Maybe his store's getting
> a lot of foot-traffic leading to local sales we
> never hear about. As for Gargamel, who knows.
>
> Wasn't the pricey nature of the ST Deathras simply
> because they were all fancy-schmancy one-offs?? A
> one-off for $110 is NOT bad. But then, I believe
> in years past, SDCC exclusive ST Zags were around
> $100, so $10 more? Meh.


Not saying the entire market is tanking but just that I see alot of $60 retail toys selling for $30-40 or less these days. Or at being resold at retail or higher they and just sitting on auction sites. Key figures are still holding their price (or more) or are still hard to find. But the weaker releases are what I am seeing so yeah, alot of deflation.

Another example, Toygraph, designer vinyl? Their Space Troopers used to sell at $60+ and now trade around for half that. I knew someone buying Secret Base at its height and paying $200 for a figure that recently sold for $25.

S7 went smaller and less pricy for their Monster Family toys. Not my thing so I don't follow that market closely. They're in the $15-$30 market versus say $60 RxH or other releases. So maybe that is the sweet spot for casual customers just like RxH producing all of that smaller stuff. Would be interesting to see sales numbers and how Monster Family stuff sells versus say the Shogun Trooper or Mori's small stuff versus his bigger figures.

Gargamel one-offs at SDCC were $3-$400 for a standard figure like a Zag or Mibora. Standard production Zags (like the S7 x Gargamel Amber Green) have been $100 in the past. So if the Thrashout Deathra is $110, yeah whatever. If its $125, hmmmm.

Obviously if you buy this stuff as an investment, you should have your head examined.
josh fraser (Moderator)
Dude,


Reading this has been interesting, but damn I am glad I only collect vintage. I feel like I need a degree in sociology/economics to collect this stuff.

It seems so...not fun.
ed
It's all a big drama fest josh.

This is why I got out of the loop of moderating that "community", it was literally leeching my soul more and more every day.

There is no fun in it. It's not collecting anymore, it's shopping.
I probably came across as a financial geek and over analyzing everything. Frankly, the numbers stuff isn't really discussed on the boards. I still love alot of the contemporary stuff along with vintage.

But can't it be flipped around, and said that vintage can bring pain? Especially with prices on the rare toys? Or the years of waiting for such and such to surface?
Sanjeev (Admin)
Haha...Ed, you forgot to mention my favorite optional step for building hype: include some sort of racist or nationalist imagery in the design...with ZERO explanation. People won't get it...and they'll argue about it. They'll be intrigued by it...but they won't know why or how. "Hmm...it really makes ya think..." No it doesn't, ya fucking airhead!

Seriously, would the NagNagNag figure be anywhere today if it weren't for "Fuck the USA" on the feet?

ed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My next lesson is how you can take "donations" on
> a non profit entrepreneur website to get your toy
> made.

Goooooh...yeah. Well...I'm not touching that one...

So, what the hell--I apparently only saw pics of Gargamel Deathra ST one-offs. Can someone please post a pic of the $110 version?

Anyway, it sounds like the RxH market IS kinda boned, huh? I only saw the signs of crashing on skullbrain...and it's easy to get caught up thinking that the board represents the entire market (and not just a small segment). But if these toys are showing up publicly on eBay, Y!J, and retailer sites--and still aren't moving--that's just not a good sign.

Josh, I hear ya, man. It's all about learning to navigate over the bullshit and zero in on the gems. Afterall, without skullbrain in the past few months, I woulda totally missed out on M1's recent GID Gabara and Last Dinosaur releases...

I'm getting more and more into vintage all the time (I blame Jim and Dave!), but I can't give up my glowies! ;)

Damn, that's hot! While the smallish predecessor kinda interested me, I never jumped on it. At least it was the closest to what I consider kaiju (and would add to my collection) than most of the other stuff out there. This, I would definitely love to own. But the days of me dropping this much on something like this have long passed (both for financial reasons and personal choice).



josh fraser Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I feel like I need a degree in sociology/economics to collect this stuff.


Yeah, this is getting too deep for me. ;) If I like it and it has that old-school vibe / jives with my collection, then I'm all for it. I don't define it.


Not sure why there was so much hostility directed towards xiombarg for voicing his opinion on the matter. I didn't think he was dissing anyone else here. Unless you're insulted by the thought that you might be collecting action figures - just one person's interpretation. I don't think it was meant as an insult. X is a long time collector. He might not be so active on this board or skullbrain, but he's been around forever and is a good guy. Maybe I'm missing something in the dialogue. Then again, I'm a simple guy and just want to see pics (i.e., I guess I would classify myself as the Hustler kind of guy vs. the Playboy kind). ;)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/2010 05:23PM by Kingboy D.
Sanjeev Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> xiombarg Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So ok.. I'm wrong, and you are right. Done.
>
> Ah, wonderful! Isn't it great to be on the same
> page? Must be tiring talking out of your asshole.
> :P

I guess it would be, feel free to stop at any time.
So here's a bunch of shots of my favorite vinyl pieces, designer and otherwise I guess. Some of these pics are from a Book I picked up at the SF MOMA on a trip to San Francisco in 2006. The Book is called "I am Plastic" by Paul Budnitz of Kidrobot fame and includes hundreds of photos and info on almost everything noteworthy in designer vinyl pre 2006. Sorry, the book does not include any Kaiju or character vinyl for those who might be interested.




















I almost forgot to mention, you might want to check out the funk of www.scarygirl.com. It's a surreal online game by designer Nathan Jurevicius where a lot of the characters are actually from his vinyl work. It's a worth a look just for weirdness of it all.
Anonymous User
Yeah, you're on a different page. Buy some back issues of Super7 magazine and come back later.
My experience with this "designer" stuff has been very limited over the years, mostly since my radar scoped out the 1st Super7 issue at ol' Barnes&Noble a few years ago(mostly for my vintage toy interests), so bear with me while I stick my neck waaay out to attempt saying anything relevant.

One thing I have learned, after browsing through several related books/mags from many sources, is be very careful to not get drawn along with any one particular viewpoint as to what the "noteworthy" timeline of designer vinyl is. May be tiring, but there's several other books on the subject that can give a more rounded view.

You'll definitely get just one players self serving accounts of 'how it all went down'. There's of course a convuluted, interconnected history between 'em all to be seen when you scrounge around a bit.
We'll get laughed out a' the building if we just accept and repeat one side of the story.

Good point akum6n, about going back and getting some back issues, but for anyone doing that, don't get too thrown by the full page ads, and review/announcement pages featuring KR stuff. Things have definitely changed over the years, heheh.
akum6n Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah, you're on a different page. Buy some back
> issues of Super7 magazine and come back later.

*yawn* Right, so let me find some My Pretty Pony Pics for ya. They're vinyl and probably won't upset you as much.
I gotta say, that's some pretty terrible looking stuff.

---------------------------------
[pgaijin.blogspot.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2010 01:57PM by hillsy.
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