Time to Procure a Valkyrie

Posted by MikeD 
Sanjeev (Admin)
RainBot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...If you're on a budget like I am and ya have
> to choose between a Yamato and a Bandai, master
> your fate - don't give in to the temptation of
> Yamato...the master of bait.

Rain, do you, sun. More power to those who can squeeze some joy out of these dumb lumps of plastic and metal we waste so much of our time and resources for. But here're my thoughts on this topic:

Fuck bait. And fuck history...unless, I suppose, you've sworn off a company purely *on principle*. I've only handled a scant few Yamato Valks in the past. Why? They seemed like floppy messes from what other's have said. Simple as that. Bought a couple here and there...and promptly sold them. No harm, no foul.

I only trust what I can touch and feel...and I had a chance to handle one of the new Yamato 1/60's (Andrew's). Solid as a fucking rock. In fact, *many* of my friends have these now...and they all attest to how sturdy and playable these are.

Why haven't I gotten one yet? Simple: I'm lazy...and they're everywhere. I'm in no rush (though I may be for that Elintseeker).

And now....the Bandai VF-25. I've heard more than a few bad things about these from a lot of people. Nagging little problems...nothing catastrophic. Hopefully, I'll get to handle one someday. I wanna be fair and judge for myself.

But here's the main thing, Rain:
No matter how solid a toy the VF-25 proves to be...and no matter how nice drif's photography is...

The VF-25 looks like something my neighbor's dog shat in the driveway.

That's not a shot at Bandai for poorly sculpting the toy. Kawamori lost it; the design just sucks. Crap in, crap out, folks. This thing looks like something Aquarion barfed up after getting anally raped by Eureka 7. ...Or something. [In case ya couldn't tell, all generic modern mecha designs look like shit to me. Spindly and mechanically unrealistic.]

And for *that* reason, alone, I'd simply never consider getting a VF-25 toy (though I enjoyed the cartoon) no matter how solid it was. And *that's* why I will ALWAYS scrutinize EVERY VF-1 toy that ever gets made...regardless of what toys have been made in the past by that company or whatever.

The VF-1 design is simply THAT good. Period.

--
Sanjeev

'Us Massholes straight up just don't give a fuck. I still pronounce "Mazinger" as "Tranzor Z".'
-Nekrodave
Runaphen: Thanks for the compliment! I gotta do more of those. They were fun.

VF5SS: That's a sobering slosh of cold water. I am aiming for the Ozma custom next, as I love the colour scheme, but should I have similar experiences to yours, I may just keep them in plane mode, which is the very definition of my Yamato-bred insanity.
Sanjeev is 200% wrong about the VF-25 design, as he always is. I have to wonder how much he would have loved the VF-1 if it was designed with CAD (or at least by a decent engineer). The VF-1 is as every bit as spindly as the other Valkyries. Look at this CAD drawing of the VF-1 from a 1984 doujin. Would you have loved it as much if this was the official depiction? Don't be fooled by the artwork, which is influenced by time constraints, ease of animation, and other aesthetic or practicality factors. When it comes down to adapting a mechanical design to a physical object the results can be as cold and soulless as the specs for an air conditioner. And honestly, Kawamori's biggest talent is not that his designs work as toys, it's that they work "well enough." Even the YF-19, which has the most variable garage kits of all the VFs works well enough.
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Nah, the VF-25 stinks.
Roger stinks, but we all knew that.
Sajeev, I respect your point of view, no matter how insane, crass and short sighted it is. :)
In my opinion, your neighbour's dog has quite a telented sphincter, and if it weren't for the possibility of catching a disease, I'd pick up your neighbour's dog leavings and zoom it around before the guys in white coats carted me off for playing with feces. But then... then I'd show them how cool looking it was... how solid and pretty. Who knows, maybe they would even agree with my aesthetic appreciation for it, but they'd still cart me away for playing with a steaming pile of dog crap.

But here's the main thing, Mr. Anti-Hemlock:
No matter how ugly a design you think the VF-25 is...and no matter how crazy you think I am for admiring what you consider a dog's leavings... ya can't argue the fact that aesthetics are determined by whatever society exposes to your mind as you grow. You are programmed to like what you like.
Your article on the Hanuman figure over at CDX illustrated something that many people in ethnocentric communities just don't do - go beyond their culture for wisdom or entertainment.
I am here to set you free. Open your mind... expand your aesthetic to include the post Evangelion spindly design movement... Live in the Now!!!

And don't pick on poor Roger. We should just accept his smell. A florist does not smell his store. The joy of life lies in the diversity of it all. Would a rose smell as sweet if he had nothing to compare it to? Embrace your inner stink!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2009 03:04PM by RainBot.
You can yak about CAD and adaptability and all that till the sun goes down, but to many of us who thought the original Valkyrie was cool-looking 25 years ago, this design just doesn't cut it. The flavor is off. The VF-25 is Mazinkaizer the VF-1J's Mazinger-Z. And Mazinkaizer stinks, too.
Don't you know? Macross is the David Bowie of mecha. I still don't see the problems with the VF-25. It's not even based on Aquarion, it comes from [mahq.net] unused Air Calvary Chronicles. So don't act so surprised when you see stuff the artist has been doing for years. Even the Armored VF-25 has some [mahq.net] Starchild in it. Also a little Stampede Valkyrie.


Allow me to be a vile temptress.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2009 03:27PM by VF5SS.
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VF5SS Wrote:
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> Don't you know? Macross is the David Bowie of
> mecha. I still don't see the problems with the
> VF-25. It's not even based on Aquarion, it comes
> from
> [mahq.net]
> unused Air Calvary Chronicles. So don't act so
> surprised when you see stuff the artist has been
> doing for years. Even the Armored VF-25 has some
> [mahq.net]
> Starchild in it. Also a little Stampede Valkyrie.

Eh. I don't like any of that stuff either.
VF5SS Wrote:
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> [toyboxdx.com]
>
> Allow me to be a vile temptress.

You are a bad, bad man. That was the exact VF-1 that I was pondering over at Toy Square (minus the FAST packs of course).
Time to get the rope...

Roger:
Open your mind, Roger. I'd do it for you.
Except with anything vinyl. Or Kaiju-based. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2009 04:06PM by RainBot.
Sanjeev (Admin)
Perhaps I enjoyed writing that post a little too much!

Anyway, Andrew, I'm just not getting what you're...getting at. What does this have to do with CAD? All I'm saying is it that regardless of what incarnation...of however many dimensions or levels of tangibility...be it cartoon still, production drawing, model, or toy...the VF-1 is vastly more interesting to me than the VF-25.

It's an opinion. A strong one. A popular one, it seems. But one that you certainly don't need to convert to.

Rainbot, good looking out (reference to sanjeevani). As for your statement about aesthetic longings, I'm not sure. I wasn't exposed to tin wind-ups AT ALL growing up...yet I love 'em. If they weren't so gods damn rare/expensive (and too fragile to wind-up and actually play with), I'd have more of them! Hell, I wasn't even exposed much to Shogun Warriors growing up. I had just a couple when I was REAL young, but the vast majority of my youth was spend playing with GI Joes, He-Man, and Transformers. And vinyls? Shit, I *NEVER* even knew of Bullmark/Marusan kaiju until only a few years ago...and yet, I debate the merits of these sculpts tooth and nail against a lot of skullbrainers who are enamored only with modern "fight figures" and the like.

Maybe our taste evolves more by subconscious choice than what we're directly exposed to growing up. For example, I'm a snobby bastard...so maybe I've unconsciously *chosen* to prefer what my mind thinks are the "finer things": vintage and vintage-style stuff.

Who knows. It's a facinating question (to me, anyway).

But like I said, I watched Macross Zero and liked it. I watched Mazinkaiser and loved it. Hell, same thing with Evangelion. I think I gave them more than a fair shot.

Perhaps that while I'm consciously all about opening my mind to new things, my subconscious choices are still constantly running and continue to influence my aesthetic preferences.

But then...are they really choices...?
Roger Wrote:
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> You can yak about CAD and adaptability and all
> that till the sun goes down, but to many of us who
> thought the original Valkyrie was cool-looking 25
> years ago, this design just doesn't cut it. The
> flavor is off. The VF-25 is Mazinkaizer the
> VF-1J's Mazinger-Z. And Mazinkaizer stinks, too.


I don't like Mazinkaizer toy designs, but I do like the VF-25S toy design. Simply great work by Bandai, and shows a lot more VF-1 heritage than any of the other post-Macross Valkyrie designs. Looks great on the shelf next to my Bandai 1/55 reissues.

Best,
--Ken-A
B00
>The VF-25 looks like something my neighbor's dog shat in the driveway.

That's a talented dog.

__________________
MoonBaseTom Season tickets available. Call now.
Sanjeev Wrote:
-

> But then...are they really choices...?


I share your fascination for what attracts us or repels us from aesthetics. The more research I've done into this aspect of human perception (I'm planning out an educational thesis about the wide gap between education systems and neuroscience) the more I'm convinced that these things are not only quantifiable, they are not as complex as we want them to be.
And as much as my ego and I have wanted to argue against determinism, the more it seems (on the Newtonian level, anyway) that choice doesn't really factor into the end result at all.

And your article on CDX was a great read. I'm a Kali fan myself. She kicks 27 levels of ass, and if they made a cool figure of her, I'd buy it in a second. My introduction to Hanuman came as a result of studying my favourite Chinese story "Journey to the West", and finding out that the likely inspiration of Sun Wukong comes from India.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2009 09:28PM by RainBot.
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It's more than just 'principles' that makes me STILL swear off the current 1/60 v2s. Because I can still see the 'bait' at work: it's not the bloody shoulders, it's the stoopid chestplate with unnecessarily protruding fuselage bits in front of the neck. HOw MANY TIMES will it take the fabled CADsters at Yamato to figure out the right balance of ingenious features, sculpt and durability to reasonably say: This is it. It looks right, it plays right, you will not have any niggling reasons to 'upgrade' when we revisit the 1/48s after sucking your wallet dry for the THIRD TIME on on the same 25-year old design. And oh, by the way, it's approved by Kawamori! Suckers!!
Anonymous User
Psst...! Better Less-breakable shoulders AFTER the VF-1D:

[www.macrossworld.com]

Wow, improvements!
VF5SS Wrote:
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> Look
> at this CAD drawing of the VF-1 from a 1984
> doujin. Would you have loved it as much if this
> was the official depiction?

CAD drawing my ass. Anyone who used a CAD package for hobby purposes back in *1984* would have needed A LOT of money, both for the software and the required workstation. True hobby-grade CAD programs only appeared in the early 1990s.

That's either:
1) a hand-drawn engineering-style drawing using a ruler that was cleaned up and then carefully copied and inked which would explain why some corners have thicker lines than others and some inaccuracies on the legs
or:
2) it was made in a consumer-grade drawing program, which would explain the straight lines, but NOT why certain elements do not match each other while they are on opposite sides of the center line.

I think it was actually made using option 1), because I've used consumer-grade drawing programs on a 1980s computer, and duplicating objects and moving them around and mirrorring them was possible, even on non-Apple Macintosh computers.

--
SilhouetteFormula.Net
It's still not a shitty 3/4ths view.
drifand Wrote:
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> It's more than just 'principles' that makes me
> STILL swear off the current 1/60 v2s. Because I
> can still see the 'bait' at work: it's not the
> bloody shoulders, it's the stoopid chestplate with
> unnecessarily protruding fuselage bits in front of
> the neck. HOw MANY TIMES will it take the fabled
> CADsters at Yamato to figure out the right balance
> of ingenious features, sculpt and durability to
> reasonably say: This is it. It looks right, it
> plays right, you will not have any niggling
> reasons to 'upgrade' when we revisit the 1/48s
> after sucking your wallet dry for the THIRD TIME
> on on the same 25-year old design. And oh, by the
> way, it's approved by Kawamori! Suckers!!

So what stopped you from buying the VF-25? It doesn't look right, it doesn't play right, and they are already upgrading it. And don't compare the new 1/60 to the 1/48th as they're two different scales. If you compare it to the original 1/60 toy, it's quite an improvement over a toy that came out eight years ago. That's right, you've been bitching for that long. By all indication, Yamato is not returning to 1/48. 1/60 allows them to make every viable Valkyrie and Destroid at a reasonable size. That makes for a sustainable toyline. Just wait until Hasegawa's 1/48 scale YF-19 comes out and you'll see how huge those toys would have to be.
VF5SS Wrote:
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> Just wait until Hasegawa's
> 1/48 scale YF-19 comes out and you'll see how huge
> those toys would have to be.

Not very.

Just below 40 cm long in fighter mode. That's about 10 cm longer than Bandai's 1/65 VF-19, and not such a massive increase.

Should be possible for 12-18 k yen. Especially since the 1/60 SV-51 is exactly the same size.

(Sizes given on MAHQ used, as well as a calculator).

Of course, considering Yamato's mammoth boxes, they'd need about a cubic meter of shelf room, which would make the costs rise to 25k yen or so... </sarcasm>

--
SilhouetteFormula.Net
By your own admission, after 8 years, Yamato, with CAD assist and production experience from the 1/48s, and able assist from the disastrous VF-0 arms episode, still can't make the 1/60 VF-1 design right. Yes, I'm talking about the protruding bits. "It's for a new feature!" Fuck THAT. It looks WRONG.

Eight years from now, I'm pretty sure my VF-25 toys will still be just fine. See how your Yamatos fare when we get there, OK?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2009 10:39AM by drifand.
I just retrieved my RVF-25 from the post office, and either people at MW are really unlucky, or they should fiddle a bit more with their VF-25's and perhaps read/look at the instructions a bit better. Or I got really lucky...

The bad points:
- Trolley cart landing gear. Could have been about 0.5 cm longer. I had some real trouble getting them to fold out, as my fingers were almost too large to reach the tab to pull them out (and I have *small* fingers) and they are kinda stiff.
- The $%$%^^%&^ transformation to Battroid mode. Way too fiddly to get things right inside the chest while the torso was also flopping around at that point. If it was 1/55 or 1/48 scale it would have been better.
- The ball joints that the shoulder missile pods attach with. I think Bandai should have used pegs here instead. The fit is kinda tight with the balljoints, and the balljoints are tiny. Scary.
- Floppy waist joint. Why use a plastic ball joint at that point, Bandai? Also, one of the ankle joints is a bit loose when fully extended.
- Knife storage non-existent.
- Some joints could have used a larger motion range, especially the hips and elbows.

Minor bad point:
- The Goddamn Trays that contain the stand and armour parts. Hard to open without spraying parts all over the room.

The contentious points (aka "tips"):
- Getting the wings to lock in in fighter mode. This requires you to push the legs up, as they tend to sag down and then the peg and hole go out of alignment.
- Getting the landing gears to lock in fighter mode. Just push them in further until they 'click'.
- Getting the crotch to stay together/lock in (notice a pattern?). If you use the waist joint, the tab holding the crotch together tend to pop out and then go out of alignment. So don't use the waist joint, then re-align the crotch tab (that sounds dirty) and pop it in the connector (that sounds worse - Valk self-gratification, anyone?).
- Getting the (lower leg/upper leg/crotch/chest/back/shield) armor to attach properly. Just make sure you look well at the pictures on the box/in the instructions, 'click' everything into place, and it should hold. Yes, including the upper leg armor that is said to pop off easily - I can tug on mine and it stays put. It may help to first pop in the lower tabs/pegs and then the upper (on all parts mentioned).
- Getting the Fast Packs to lock (really, all the same subject - can't be a coincidence, can it?). Slide them onto the wing near the wing root (wing extended, tail fin extended), then slide them inwards a bit until they 'click' onto the wing root. Fold the tail fin down, and fold the wing back.
- General advice: before screaming "IT IS LOOSE", be sure you put things together right and made them 'click' together.

The color:
- Frankly, I couldn't see a difference until I looked really well under natural light. There's a small difference under artificial light that seems to be entirely due to some parts being glossier than others. Maybe I got lucky...

The good:
- Shoulders are equally tight in the balljoint, perhaps a bit too tight in the metal hinge joints
- No paint/tampo-print rubbing/flaking. Dry, non-sweaty/greasy/dirty with chemicals like alcohol hands help.
- Oooooh! It can stand ON MY CARPET with no stand and full armour in BATTROID mode! :D
- Hands fit tight yet are easy to remove.
- The RADOME. THE RADOME. *drool*
- The armour. *drool*
- The general finishing. Nice, smooth, sharp. Nearly zero badly painted bits (a 0.5 square mm areas was rough near one of the wing roots).
- The diecast. Could in fact be increased IMHO.
- The additional hands
- The box. Mmmmm, styrofoam. Compact, and yet a nice presentation. No window through which the toy can yellow.
- No major QC problems like every single Yamato Valk has.
- Modern Chogokin Bandai Valk. Nuff said.


Of course, being a collector's toy, it is not fit to zoom across the room with all armour bits attached like I did when aged five, as that will lead to certain breakage (it did too on some of my childhood toys - G1 Bruticus, sorry I accidentally ripped your arm off while battling Computron (Lightspeed lost his head, too)...)

--
SilhouetteFormula.Net
Thanks for the mini review thomas.

Can't afford one right now. I'll have to wait till it goes for a bit less. ;_;

--------------------------------------------------------------

I asked if I have "Time For L-Gaim" but I got "No Reply From The Wind".
Hullo everyone! Taking a break from the 12inch world (girlie figures, not sausages) to join in the fun...

So, does this toy suck or what?
Here's to hoping Harmony Gold gets a go at these new-fangled valks!


Wait for it... "OMG, the green doesn't match!" LOL.
Fantastic, tofubaby! You THRUST that DX crotch at the non-believers! :-)
Is there REALLY $180 worth of toy on that?

--------------------------------------------------------------

I asked if I have "Time For L-Gaim" but I got "No Reply From The Wind".
drifand Wrote:
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> Eight years from now, I'm pretty sure my VF-25
> toys will still be just fine. See how your Yamatos
> fare when we get there, OK?

My 8 year old VF-1A is still fine. Let's see what happens when the groin in your VF-25 is too loose to stand up anymore because Bandai couldn't apply their SUPER TOY ENGINEERING SKILLS because they didn't feel like it.
MattAlt (Admin)
NERD FIGHT!!!!
MattAlt (Admin)
('Cause if it ain't sofubi, it ain't a Valkyrie to me.)


MattAlt Wrote:
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> NERD FIGHT!!!!


damn straight, you know what I just did at party? Argue the ending to Watchmen and talk about the 2001 book series. NERD RAGE!
Don't bring a Yammie to a knife fight!



As for the crotch, hmm... I guess if comes down to it, a dab of nail polish would do the trick. But totally cracked shoulder hinges? Oooh...
And BTW, stock toy in Gerwalk ain't half bad... if you take the time to enjoy it instead of worrying over parts breaking.




Vincent Z. Wrote:
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> Is there REALLY $180 worth of toy on that?


Vince, the answer to your question is right here.
Anyone born after Return of the Jedi was in the theaters doesn't have the necessary perspective to judge Valkyrie design.
B00
Quote

Can't afford one right now. I'll have to wait till it goes for a bit less. ;_;

Vince, get the model. It looks great and it's more affordable. You can always get a set of fast packs later.



__________________
MoonBaseTom Season tickets available. Call now.
B00 Wrote:
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> Can't afford one right now. I'll have to wait till
> it goes for a bit less. ;_;
>
> Vince, get the model. It looks great and it's more
> affordable. You can always get a set of fast packs
> later.
>
> [www.moonbasetom.com]
> /02/vf-25s_battroid_4.jpg


It's only affordable if you're paying yourself sweatshop wages to build it.
Might as well let the commies do it.
Do you Remember Lurve? Do ya? Do ya?



(After Drifand - thanks you made me blow my toy budget... again!)
MattAlt Wrote:
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> ('Cause if it ain't sofubi, it ain't a Valkyrie to
> me.)
>
> [www.toyboxdx.com]
> mages/macross/vinylfocker.jpg

Sofubi Imajin sez: Dont'cha know those things will kill ya mang?

[www.pvcfree.org]
B00 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Vince, get the model. It looks great and it's more
> affordable. You can always get a set of fast packs
> later.

And do some major parts swapping! Of which the DX has almost none (except the hip guards).

Additional comment on the RVF's color: Just noticed that it really seems to be a lighting effect. Indirect sunlight makes one arm look a lot darker green than the other (which has a more vivid color, too).

--
SilhouetteFormula.Net



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2009 04:29AM by thomas.
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